lets talk herbs

[Blahqw]

ok so dit da jow, and dit da jui a world of mystery.
let us talk about how they are used and how not to use them.

ill start. a lot of dit da jow formulas had cinnabar listed. cinnabar is raw mercury ore. should it be used? or should we look at what we now know of murcury and not include it in the formula. i long for an educated thought on this.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

ill start. a lot of dit da jow formulas had cinnabar listed. cinnabar is raw mercury ore. should it be used?

It doesn't have to be used. Cinnabar,Mercury have long been used in Chinese medical practices. We know now that there are better herbs such as Dragon's blood(Xue Jie*Draconis Sanguis*) And Alcohol to be absorbed thru the skin.

or should we look at what we now know of murcury and not include it in the formula. i long for an educated thought on this.

The estimated lethal dose of methyl mercury for a 70 kg (154 lb) person ranges from 20 to 60 mg per kilogram of body weight

The lethal concentration for dogs in 20 - 50 mg/m3, after daily eight hour exposures

Chinese medicine formulas can range the amount of Cinnabar in it.
Also note in Chinese medicine a toxic herb is used but the toxicity is canceled out by another herb.
My advice is to avoid taking formulas with Cinnabar as their are safer,effective alternatives to it.

 

[Blahqw]

kinda the way i see it.
why use something today that we know is not really good, so many things can replace or substitute. you mentioned dragons blood, very good stuff along with frankincense and myrrh , noto-ginseng and safflower which can act as a base to many good formulas all safe to use

 

[DaleDugas]

No reason at all in the least to include that kind of toxin into your body.

There are some herbs that are toxic but are not mercury.

Xi Xin is toxic to the kidneys when taken internally but it used more externally without much trouble for pain. You find it in some of the more chronic dit da jow formulations.

Bai Hua She is a pit viper and again slightly toxic internally but not externally. Used for wind(tremors) and arthritis and rheumatism. Used in certain high level iron palm formulations.

I say leave the cinnabar to the books and never use it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But... but cinnabar did wonders for Qin Shi Huangdi

And by wonders I mean drove him crazy and killed him off young... where many Assassins failed cinnabar succeeded
.

I'd avoid the cinnabar

Thank You and good night :bangahead:

 

[clfsean]

Only thing I ever use cinnabar for is in Lion Dotting ceremonies... public ones anyway. The ASPCA & most "gentility" would loose their lunch if we used a chicken...

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Xue does your wife know if any Cinnabar(Zhu Sha 朱&#30722recipes are used still in China? I am pretty sure its use is illegal in the states.

 

[Blahqw]

wow this topic took off! fantastic. so cinnabar is out id say that is the consensus.
does anyone have any thoughts on the "power strength wines" that people sell for way too much money?
i like to use ginseng-lu rong( deer antler)- and jujube dates as base a tonic (maybe a little mahuang) , this is a personal fav. of mine,seems to increase tolerance in the boby for training.

also i like a wine made from lyccii - schizandra- licorice and dong gui. as a very good blood tonic. seems to get the body feeling healthy.

any wines any one wants to talk about or share.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue does your wife know if any Cinnabar(Zhu Sha 朱&#30722recipes are used still in China? I am pretty sure its use is illegal in the states.

I will have to check and get back to you.

 

[Blahqw]

id be surprised if it ( cinnabar) was actually illegal, but i have not stopped to look it up either.

 

[tellner]

JCA, I really don't care if it's been used for 10,000 years and has the Seal of Approval of Xin Shihuangdi. Mercury is bad stuff. It accumulates in the body. It destroys your central nervous system, causes birth defects and if used long enough will kill you dead.

There are some worthwhile things in traditional medicine including the Chinese version. But the fact that something's "traditional" is not a reason to do it in the face of clear, proven evidence that it's ineffective or actually harmful. I know you have a personal emotional attachment to the idea that Chinese culture is great and good and that Chinese medicine is, too. Fine. As an amphibian I believe in the supremacy of the semi-aquatic lifestyle.

"In the whole world no group is quite as cool as my group. In my group there is nobody quite as cool as me" is one of the most common diseases of the human ego. It immediately extends to "Anything connected with my group must be wonderful" which is where keept coming back to when you and the evidence-based scientific medicine supporters butt heads over this sort of thing.

Pointing out that there's a lot of incorrect stuff in thousand year-old pre-scientific folk cures is not an attack on China, Chinese culture or any person of Chinese extraction.

Bottom line: Do not put cinnabar or anything that contains it into your body or on unprotected skin. It is bad for you.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Tellner,

I agree with not using Cinnabar. As stated here:

My advice is to avoid taking formulas with Cinnabar as their are safer,effective alternatives to it.

I have also provided evidence showing its toxicity and amount. From what I have read on dosage in Chinese medicine the amount is nowhere near these amounts. This is not an excuse to use it I am only stating that dosage is very small and it is not used for extended periods of time.

Using Cinnabar is not taught in Acupuncture school here in America well at least that I know of. Maybe as a reference but not in treatments.
Cinnabar has to much risk and their are other herbs that can be used in its place.

I do not hold any group of people in higher or inferior states nor do I percieve myself to have an emotional attachment to all things Chinese or Asian however giving my interests it might seem that way.

So I think we are in agreement that Cinnabar should not be used and from my perspective should be kept as an olden approach similar to consuming Jade or Gold.

 

[Xue Sheng]

JCA, I really don't care if it's been used for 10,000 years and has the Seal of Approval of Xin Shihuangdi.

If you mean Qin Shi Huang Di I really hope this part of your post is tongue in cheek and not another attack on me based on Traditional Chinese Medicine because if you read my post it never said he gave it any approval, although he did use it in his quest for immortality. I said it drove him crazy and likely killed him.

Qin Shi Huang Di was the first emperor of China and died in 210 BCE

I also said don't use cinnabar

Now if my knowledge of Chinese history is also an issue I don't really know what to tell you here other than look up the Qin Empire it will be there

 

[Blahqw]

i didn't try to get a heated thing goin. i simply wanted to see if my thoughts on cinnabar were sound. seems like you can go on the concept that since it(mercury) has been used since ancient times, that it must be ok, or alternatively you can ask yourself if modern understanding could play a roll in herbology. using alternatives is probly best. we all know how murcury can kill the water systems of earth. now lets look at water as a philosophy, should we do things to cause that harm.
lets move on to other aspects of herbs...or not

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I thought I would add some things on the history of Cinnabars use:

From the different writings such as the Bao Bu Zi and other External traditions using Cinnabar we find talk about supernatural powers.
IMO this is result of poisoning not only of Mercury but other alloys such as Arsonolite.

I find this interesting:

Despite the well known toxicity of arsenic, arsenic trioxide has long been of biomedical interest, dating to traditional Chinese medicine, where it is known as Pi Shuang and is still used to treat cancer and other conditions.[6] Some discredited patent medicines, e.g. Fowler's solution, contained derivatives of arsenic oxide. Arsenic trioxide under the trade name Trisenox (manufacturer: Cephalon) is a chemotheraputic agent of idiopathic function used to treat leukemia that is unresponsive to "first line" agents. It is suspected that arsenic trioxide induces cancer cells to undergo apoptosis. Due to the toxic nature of arsenic, this drug carries significant risks. Use as a cytostatic in the treatment of refractory promyelocytic (M3) subtype of acute myeloid leukemia.[7][8] The combination therapy of arsenic trioxide and all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA) has been approved by the U.S. FDA for treatment of certain leukemias.[9]
Arsenic trioxide also appears to be a promising therapeutic agent for autoimmune diseases.[10]
The enzyme thioredoxin reductase has recently been identified as a target for arsenic trioxide.[11]

According to Ko Hung the refinement of Cinnabar was a painstaking process the crucible could not even have a hairline opening or it would ruin the process along with other taboos.
Another interesting article dealing with Cinnabar:
http://www.unspeakabletruth.net/Chinese_alchemy/encyclopedia.htm

Arthur Waley thought because Cinnabar was used as a pigment on early grave ornaments and suggested that it was thought to have life giving properties. This is most likely a clear sign of Shamanism moving into the early external alchemy. It is interesting to note that this external use of Cinnabar used to prolong life was not in decline until the Tang dynasty despite the death toll. There is alot of apologetics who even during those times made excuses on why it did not work and that in itself would make a very interesting read.

 

[Blahqw]

what about herbs found here in America. american ginseng(panax quinefolius) Solomens seal (polygonatum commutatum) and even licorice root( glycyrrhiza lepidota) are found native to my area, along with some others. my way is to cultivate "mothers" within the medicinal gardens section of my personal "zen" garden. does any one have experience with this side of herbology? how can i obtain ginseng plants/ knowing they take years to grow into harvestable roots.
i have read about ginseng collector permits....does anyone have experience with this?

if any one had viable ginseng plants/seeds i'd be interested in barter.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

does any one have experience with this side of herbology

I don't understand the question. Are you asking if anyone has experience with Herbs you just listed?

how can i obtain ginseng plants/ knowing they take years to grow into harvestable roots.

http://www.shadeflowers.com/ They sell it. I am sure there are other places that sell it in the form you are talking about. This is American Ginseng(Panax Quinquefolium) I do not know where to get Asian Ginseng(Panax Ginseng) Plants. I have only seem roots.

i have read about ginseng collector permits....does anyone have experience with this?

http://www.tn.gov/environment/permits/ginseng.shtml
http://www.vermontagriculture.com/ARMES/plantindustry/plantPathology/ginseng/index.html
It deals more with selling Ginseng. And also deals more with Wild and American Ginseng.

 

[Blahqw]

sorry , looking for growing tips and issues pertained to said herbs. i know american ginseng needs very specific light, filtered shade and what not.

 

[Xue Sheng]

i know american ginseng needs very specific light, filtered shade and what not.

And depending on what state you live in it also requires a permit

 

[clfsean]

And depending on what state you live in it also requires a permit

Really?? Why?? It's not like growing peyote for native American religious ceremonies & such...