LEOs and MMA.

[Xue Sheng]

I don't thnk the attraction of MMA for LEOs and the military is because of any self defence uses it has for them,most MA contain that. I think it's more the mind set of the fighters, the type of hard and disciplined training and the camaradie that suits them. LEOs and military people by their very nature are more inclined to step forward and put themselves on the line, we have quite a few fireman who also fight here and they all have in common their more adventurous natures where if they are interested in a martial art they want it to be one that stretches and challenges them. I'm sure there are TMAs that can go this but the other advantage of MMA we've found for our soldiers is that there is no syllabus to follow so when they are unable to come to class because of duties, deployments etc they aren't missing anything as they can pick up where they left off when they are able to return.

Good points that I had not really considered. I just chalked it up to hard physical training that is needed to help keep in shape for the job.

And yes there are TMAs that can do this as well but IMO they are few and far between these days. Too many TMA light schools out there.

This is also why IMO that some TMA styles are not so popular, one of the reasons is the training requires too much discipline and the other is the returns are not as quick as things like MMA, BJJ, Sanshou, etc.

 

[Tez3]

I think it's basically finding a MA style that suits you and your life style. Most of us work shifts and have families so it's not always possible to study a style that going to take up a huge amount of time, many people who are interested in MMA already have a style or two under their belts (sorry lol) so MMA makes good sense for them.
We have miostly soldiers in our MMA club who will disappear to the sandy countries for six months at a time, before that they have exercises and such so any style that involves gradings and a fixed syllabus is diffucult for them to do. They enjoy the toughness of the training as it undoubtable helps with their army training but for the most part it's actually stress relieving for them, they enjoy fighting in the ring/cage. they enjoy the fighting but they also like the fact that under MMA rules they know they nor their opponent won't be damaged. Perhaps the military among you will understand what I mean? It's hard to explain.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's hard to explain.

No need

 

[Imminent]

I beg to differ on a few points you made. While some things that are taught can be learned in a quick fashion, it doesn't mean that the student should cease practice. I'll use Krav Maga as an example. In a short time, they claim they can teach some effective stuff, and IMO, yes, they can. Its short, sweet and to the point. But, if you want to really be solid with something, its still going to require a refresher. It'd still be a good idea to run thru the material on a regular basis so you stay fresh. Even running some scenario drills is a good idea. If a cop fires his weapon just during the academy, and never goes to the range for practice, do you think he's going to be any better than someone who hits the range a few times a month?

If it was really possible to learn a few things and never have to do them again, the enrollment at every school in the world would be a quarter of what it is.

Mike

I never meant to imply that you should not stay fresh and train as often as possible. For example you use krav maga, I am assuming not the commando krav maga. While it is a combative module, we still consider it a sport combative, but it can teach relatively quickly and effectively. We use a different set and while you can walk out and apply effectively all that we teach in a seminar, the more time you spend internalizing and going through modelling and visualization in the strike/break/throw patterns the easier it is to see attack vectors and learn the advanced body patterning. There is never a point where you should stop trying to get better if your job puts you in harms way. All I was attempting to say was that you can learn to inflict debilitating trauma without spending more than one day in a non-sport oriented environment. It really is about the pedagogy used, if you aren't learning the principles but only a set of various techniques the recall under stress is far more difficult. Your points concerning continued training are absolutely sound. It gets to the point that the more you spend time breaking the specific target vectors in practice, the easier it is to commit through them when it hits the fan.

 

[profesormental]

Tez3,

Yes, it is a correct oxymoron. I hope it was understood!

And here's one for you! Right back at'cha!!

they enjoy the fighting but they also like the fact that under MMA rules they know they nor their opponent won't be damaged.

Hehe!

On a serious note, I have military students and the issue that their body is their main source of money is a major concern for some of them.

And I agree with your sentiments about MMA training.

Thanks for the great posts.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Tez3]

Tez3,

Yes, it is a correct oxymoron. I hope it was understood!

And here's one for you! Right back at'cha!!



Hehe!

On a serious note, I have military students and the issue that their body is their main source of money is a major concern for some of them.

And I agree with your sentiments about MMA training.



Thanks for the great posts.

Juan M. Mercado

thank you!.
It's not so much they are bothered about injuries, one of them dislocated his shoulder in the club last week, its more that when they come back from Iraq and Afghanistan they have had their fill of death, destruction and injuries, not just of theirs but also of the civilian population so when they come back they enjoy the fighting but knowing it's ruled and as safe as we can make it while still be exciting.There they can be honourable warriors among themselves with no children or civilians involved.
Perhaps it's the same for LEOs, MMA and its fights are a world where you know where you are, there's rules and order but people can still be themselves. Perhaps it is a warrior thing.

 

[MJS]

I never meant to imply that you should not stay fresh and train as often as possible. For example you use krav maga, I am assuming not the commando krav maga.

Yes, I was referring to the regular KM, not the CKM version.

While it is a combative module, we still consider it a sport combative, but it can teach relatively quickly and effectively.

Forgive me here, but how is KM viewed as a sport art? IMO, I'd say its more along the lines of RBSD and guys like Wagner, Blauer, Thompson, etc.

We use a different set and while you can walk out and apply effectively all that we teach in a seminar, the more time you spend internalizing and going through modelling and visualization in the strike/break/throw patterns the easier it is to see attack vectors and learn the advanced body patterning.

I'd certainly be interested in hearing more about this. If you'd rather not talk about it public though, thats fine.

There is never a point where you should stop trying to get better if your job puts you in harms way. All I was attempting to say was that you can learn to inflict debilitating trauma without spending more than one day in a non-sport oriented environment. It really is about the pedagogy used, if you aren't learning the principles but only a set of various techniques the recall under stress is far more difficult. Your points concerning continued training are absolutely sound. It gets to the point that the more you spend time breaking the specific target vectors in practice, the easier it is to commit through them when it hits the fan.

Thanks for your reply.

Mike

 

[chinto]

for most LEO types I would suggest a good Judo instructor, or perhaps aikido. but most likely a good judo or traditional Japanese jujitsu instructor.
the LEO's job is to bring them in as unhurt as possible for trial. also an LEO must be prepared to face multiple attackers and I have not seen any MMA training that is very applicable to multiple attackers. ( at least not the UFC types)

 

[Tez3]

I have a suspicion that LEOs etc do MMA as a sport not for SD. The ones I know do.

 

[chinto]

I have a suspicion that LEOs etc do MMA as a sport not for SD. The ones I know do.

yes that is provably true... and in some places that reputation of being in cage matches as a fighter might have a psychological edge with some of the low life's. But, in most states to do any thing but the basic competitions as I understand it require a prize fighters license... and that is then a legal problem for the cop to use any force ..
in my state if you are a licensed prize fighter and have an altercation, its automatically aggrevated assault to attempted murder charge, and the burden of proof is on you to prove it was self defense.... so in that end any LEO must check with an attorneys as it may become a real legal liability.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I posted this on FMAT:

Beat Cops

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Why the Police Are Becoming [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Some of the World's Toughest Fighters[/FONT]

A different take on this article:
Sean Gannon to Re-Emerge From Obscurity?



Here's a group that needs real (albeit somewhat specialized) self-defense...if this truly is a trend, I find it interesting!

I train in MMA, though I don't compete, I train with lots of guys who do. A fellow officer is considering competing and an officer at a neighboring department has been competing for 2 years.....several more are likely to follow suit.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It seems that a lot of LEO's are finally "waking up to smell the coffee" vis-a-vis the serious threat posed by an attacker with an even moderate level of MMA training (though, to their credit, there are quite a few who have been in the game for a long time)
There was a pretty good article by Steve Moses (Garland, Tx SWAT officer and firearms instructor) in the March issue of SWAT magazine that addressed this problem.

Here's a cool video on the topic from Burton Richardson

I think it's an excellent trend, considering for a while there it seemed like most cops who left the academy had never been in a fist fight in their life.....and while that might seem like a good thing for a sunday school teacher, it's not as good as it seems for someone who's responsibility is maintaining peace and order by force if necessary!

 

[sgtmac_46]

for most LEO types I would suggest a good Judo instructor, or perhaps aikido. but most likely a good judo or traditional Japanese jujitsu instructor.
the LEO's job is to bring them in as unhurt as possible for trial. also an LEO must be prepared to face multiple attackers and I have not seen any MMA training that is very applicable to multiple attackers. ( at least not the UFC types)

In addition to MMA (boxing, MT, Jui-Jitsu), i've trained for years in Judo and have been training in the FMA's for about 2 years.

As for aikido, there are some excellent techniques from that system, but most aikido schools would be of little immediate benefit to law enforcement...but...I did study Aiki-jujitsu under John Karriman Sensei in Joplin, Mo. while I was going to the police academy at MSSU...Karriman was the DT instructor for the Academy as well, and invited students to his Dojo....strangely, I was the only one who availed himself of the opportunity....oh well, everyone else's loss....and while I only scratched the most basic of basics of the surfaces in that three months, what I learned there over 12 years ago i've used many times on the street.

 

[chinto]

In addition to MMA (boxing, MT, Jui-Jitsu), i've trained for years in Judo and have been training in the FMA's for about 2 years.

As for aikido, there are some excellent techniques from that system, but most aikido schools would be of little immediate benefit to law enforcement...but...I did study Aiki-jujitsu under John Karriman Sensei in Joplin, Mo. while I was going to the police academy at MSSU...Karriman was the DT instructor for the Academy as well, and invited students to his Dojo....strangely, I was the only one who availed himself of the opportunity....oh well, everyone else's loss....and while I only scratched the most basic of basics of the surfaces in that three months, what I learned there over 12 years ago i've used many times on the street.

excellent choice, is that a diato (sp?) ryu akijujitsu? I know that some Aikido instructors do modify their curriculum for LEO students to make it more applicable sooner to their needs. I would also say most good Okinawan systems of karate would be a reasonably good choice for LEO personal.
I know several LEO that are students of Okinawan systems and have been very happy with what they learn and its use. ( of course any LEO has to watch out for the claim that they have used excessive force. but, going home instead of the hospital or morgue is kinda a priority. )

 

[sgtmac_46]

excellent choice, is that a diato (sp?) ryu akijujitsu? I know that some Aikido instructors do modify their curriculum for LEO students to make it more applicable sooner to their needs. I would also say most good Okinawan systems of karate would be a reasonably good choice for LEO personal.
I know several LEO that are students of Okinawan systems and have been very happy with what they learn and its use. ( of course any LEO has to watch out for the claim that they have used excessive force. but, going home instead of the hospital or morgue is kinda a priority. )

Yes, it was a Daito Ryu......but, unfortunately, my exposure to it lasted only during the time I was at my academy.......but it's been valuable enough that even after 15 years, I still use some of the techniques, despite having studied other systems over the years.

It's been my experience that the MORE skilled you are, the greater the ability you have to bring physical force to bear, the stronger, the faster, the greater overwhelming force one has at their disposal.......the LESS force they will need to use in an encounter.

The worst i've ever injured anyone in the course of the line of duty was a couple shoulder dislocations, a wrist dislocations, and some minor contusions.......all considered completely acceptable injuries resulting for active resistance.............and it's mostly due to the fact that i'm a big, strong guy, with some skill and training, who believes that the aggressively and timely implementation of low-end use of force quite often prevents much higher end uses of force.

The officer who is most dangerous is the one who's physical skills are so deficient that a tussle turns in to a lethal force encounter because he allows a subject to put him in a lethal force situation that another officer would have subdued more easily with low-end uses of force..........in other words, counter-intuitive to what many laymen and administrators might believe is the case.