Learning Another Art

wingchun100

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Sometimes (well, a lot of times) people will post threads here on MT where they say they are studying one art that covers a certain range of combat (let's say kicking), and they want to know what style they could learn to handle other ranges (punching/trapping/grappling). More often than not, these people are poo pooed on here and told that it takes a long time to "master" the one they are already studying. (Some people go on to say you can never even master the first one...all you can do is keep refining it...but that's a whole other thread.)

However, a thought struck me the other day: as long as the style they picked for the other range complimented what they are currently studying, what would be the harm in that? For example, from what little knowledge I have, I can see how judo would be a better compliment to my wing chun training than aikido if I wanted to add a grappling range art to my curriculum. (However, I don't know what style that covers kicking range would fit well with it.)

At any rate, your thoughts?
 

drop bear

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Kids grow up in some countries and know 7 different languages. You should be able to handle more than one martial art if that sort of thing interests you.

At our club we do it a fair bit.
 
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wingchun100

wingchun100

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Kids grow up in some countries and know 7 different languages. You should be able to handle more than one martial art if that sort of thing interests you.

At our club we do it a fair bit.

That's my thinking too, but I have seen a lot of other posters (I don't have examples off the top of my head) who get a major critique for even daring to think such a thing!
 

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As a rule I encourage people to attain black belt (or whatever their style might consider an equivalent) in one style before taking on another. But if the two styles are wildly different from each other and will have little or no overlap then it might be okay to tackle two at once. It's when two styles are very similar that confusion creeps in.
 

tshadowchaser

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How much time (hours a day, weeks, years) do you plan on putting into each art to learn them. How proficient do you want to be in each ( just a little self defense or knowledge or darn good at each).
Each art you study takes time to learn no matter if you want a basic knowledge or a teaching level but you can learn more than one at once.
If the styles are completely different it is easier to learn 2 styles at once.
I do not know the rule most instructors have these days but years ago an instructor would kick you out of his school if you studied another art. He would tell you to make a choice what you wanted to learn and tell you he did not want students who only wanted to have study and could or would not devote full time to his style. BUT thats another story and and idea from days past that can be discussed later.
 

drop bear

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You do need to be ready to lean the new style rather than adapting the old one. Remembering that if you are learning something new you won't be as good at it. So the temptation is there to do things your own way.
 

Danny T

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I am of the view the average human is capable of learning a multitude of different things during the same time frame. We are a multi martial art training facility with students from the ages of 4 years to our eldest at 72 learning in multiple training methods. At the same time. Our Adult Beginners program incorporates Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Silat, Kali, and Submission Wrestling in the same program. Our Youth Programs utilize Shotokan, Submission Wrestling, and Kali. They all learn the different stances, weight distribution, footwork, movements, and terminology for the different systems. From the Beginner programs they go into the various individual methods. Almost 70% of our members continue to train in multiple methods and are very successful.
 

jks9199

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Kids grow up in some countries and know 7 different languages. You should be able to handle more than one martial art if that sort of thing interests you.

At our club we do it a fair bit.

That's my thinking too, but I have seen a lot of other posters (I don't have examples off the top of my head) who get a major critique for even daring to think such a thing!

One headache for mixing styles or cross training is whether or not the principles that underlie them are in sync. To make a really extreme example -- if you're trying to meld a style that relies on relaxation and circular movements and one that's all about tension and straight lines -- you'll be fighting yourself under pressure. It can be done -- but you really do need a solid grounding in one set of principles before you try to jumble other stuff in. That doesn't mean mastery -- or even the equivalent of first dan. But you have to have the primary art's principles pretty well understood before you mix 'em up. Unless they're already in good alignment to begin with...

And then there's the simple issue of time and effort. My teacher tells how he was once invited to a black belt only class, taught by a senior master in the area -- but of a different art. After going, and doing drills, and being corrected for making a fist improperly, it dawned on him that, unless he'd already mastered everything HIS teacher had to teach him... He was wasting his time working on stuff from someone else.
 

Xue Sheng

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However, a thought struck me the other day: as long as the style they picked for the other range complimented what they are currently studying, what would be the harm in that? For example, from what little knowledge I have, I can see how judo would be a better compliment to my wing chun training than aikido if I wanted to add a grappling range art to my curriculum. (However, I don't know what style that covers kicking range would fit well with it.)

At any rate, your thoughts?

I have always felt that Wing Chun and Judo would be good together, but with that said, sometime you need to spend time in one art to see that all you really need is in that art. It may take multiple teachers but you may be surprised at what you find when you focus. But even if that is not the case I do not feel it is a good idea to start training both arts at the same time and train them concurrently. You need to work with one for awhile before you move on to another IMO
 

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Sometimes (well, a lot of times) people will post threads here on MT where they say they are studying one art that covers a certain range of combat (let's say kicking), and they want to know what style they could learn to handle other ranges (punching/trapping/grappling). More often than not, these people are poo pooed on here and told that it takes a long time to "master" the one they are already studying. (Some people go on to say you can never even master the first one...all you can do is keep refining it...but that's a whole other thread.)

However, a thought struck me the other day: as long as the style they picked for the other range complimented what they are currently studying, what would be the harm in that? For example, from what little knowledge I have, I can see how judo would be a better compliment to my wing chun training than aikido if I wanted to add a grappling range art to my curriculum. (However, I don't know what style that covers kicking range would fit well with it.)

At any rate, your thoughts?


Obviously everyone has a different opinion. I've always felt it's best to make the style your own anyway. We don't all move the same, we have different strengths and weaknesses. I personally say go for it. Of course I've been doing it for years, jumping from one style to the next for various reasons. The longest I was ever in one style for was 5 years in TKD and 5 years in SD, the rest of the time I was jumping around. Today I kinda mesh together and do my own thing.

The interesting thing is, even when I was in TKD for example for 5 years, everyone fought a bit different. We were all learning the same style, but we all had very distinct way of sparring, based upon size, experience, and comfort level with techniques.

I will say, training becomes habit. Going into different styles has really left an imprint.
 

mook jong man

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It depends if you can keep them separate , for your Wing Chun I believe it would be less detrimental if you did a ground based grappling system rather than than one with a lot of stand up grappling like Judo.

The grip fighting in Judo will be in conflict with the responses you are trying to train in chi sau , so personally I would stay away from that.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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One of the negative things about learning a bunch of systems at the same time is that there is no underlying structure that keeps things fundamentally cohesive for the practitioner. It can end up like a Frankenstein monster where the practitioner can put on a silat hat, muay thai hat, submission grappling hat, etc. but under stress they cannot make anything work well. (I have run into a few of these guys) If there is a structure and cohesiveness to it then there is no problem learning multiple methods but few broad systems have this. (though some do) Quite often good advice is to pick and art and master the fundamentals in it then go out and learn more. That way you have structure and can add to it! ;)
 

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I think you should do whatever it is that you are interested in. If you are interested in training in multiple different systems simultaneously, then do so. It really doesn't matter what your reason or rationale is for doing so, only that you are interested in doing it. So do it.

Some people do not feel it is necessary, and/or do not have interest in doing it. Some people never seem to have that interest, others arrive at that point after having trained in multiple systems and tried that approach. There is certainly something to be said about training in several systems as a way of exploring and figuring out what system is the best for you, and then focusing your energies on that one system, moving forward.

Anyway, do whatever it is that you find interesting. Don't be surprised if not everyone shares your views on the topic. And reap whatever rewards, and accept whatever issues and problems that may result. Make your own decisions about it.
 

drop bear

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It depends if you can keep them separate , for your Wing Chun I believe it would be less detrimental if you did a ground based grappling system rather than than one with a lot of stand up grappling like Judo.

The grip fighting in Judo will be in conflict with the responses you are trying to train in chi sau , so personally I would stay away from that.

I would have thought wrestling would work better. The takedowns are very front on and there is an element of hand trapping in arm drags.
 

mook jong man

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I would have thought wrestling would work better. The takedowns are very front on and there is an element of hand trapping in arm drags.

The problem is you are still manipulating people's arms , and when he gets locked up in chi sau he will probably try to wrestle his way out of it instead of using a Wing Chun based technique like pivoting his way out of it.

Trying an arm drag in chi sau often gets you an elbow strike in the sternum if the person knows what they are doing.
By all means learn to defend the take downs by controlling the head , and learn the bridge and roll to escape the mount.
But stay away from messing around with people's arms in the vertical type situation because we already do that quite efficiently in chi sau.
 

WaterGal

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I think as long as you commit and put the time in, you can study however many you'd like. If you want to spend 10 hours a week training and learn three different things, go for it. My issue is when people are flighty and want to do one thing for two months and then another thing for two months and never commit to anything.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Trying an arm drag in chi sau often gets you an elbow strike in the sternum if the person knows what they are doing.
When you apply "arm drag",

- Your leading hand drag your opponent's wrist,
- Your back hand drag his elbow.

Without that "elbow" drag, of course your opponent can use his elbow strike on you.

 
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wingchun100

wingchun100

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It depends if you can keep them separate , for your Wing Chun I believe it would be less detrimental if you did a ground based grappling system rather than than one with a lot of stand up grappling like Judo.

The grip fighting in Judo will be in conflict with the responses you are trying to train in chi sau , so personally I would stay away from that.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about learning multiple styles for myself. I was just stating my observation that, if a second style doesn't violate the principles of the first, then it would compliment your current skills rather than confuse you. Yes, judo has stand-up grappling, but from what I learned of it, it is also about not fighting strength against strength. That component is what made me think it would be a good match...if I WERE going to study another style.
 

drop bear

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The problem is you are still manipulating people's arms , and when he gets locked up in chi sau he will probably try to wrestle his way out of it instead of using a Wing Chun based technique like pivoting his way out of it.

Trying an arm drag in chi sau often gets you an elbow strike in the sternum if the person knows what they are doing.
By all means learn to defend the take downs by controlling the head , and learn the bridge and roll to escape the mount.
But stay away from messing around with people's arms in the vertical type situation because we already do that quite efficiently in chi sau.

I only have a vague idea about chi sau and am looking at it on YouTube at the moment.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kolgxMBdsbU

Now one thing I noticed is that they were doing arm drags and basic hand trapping concepts.

I really can't see why clinching could not be bolted on.

Pummeling looks similar to chi sau.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYCWyiyko4

A better example of contested pummeling.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrfDW3HA0ZA
 

mook jong man

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I only have a vague idea about chi sau and am looking at it on YouTube at the moment.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kolgxMBdsbU

Now one thing I noticed is that they were doing arm drags and basic hand trapping concepts.

I really can't see why clinching could not be bolted on.

Pummeling looks similar to chi sau.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYCWyiyko4

A better example of contested pummeling.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrfDW3HA0ZA

When you start adding things on to chi sau , it then becomes JKD.
It is no longer chi sau as it was designed to be practiced , it is a hybrid version.
Chi sau is already theoretically perfect it doesn't need things added to it.

Now I get that people think that the various grappling systems use leverage and not brute strength to execute their movements , but from a Wing Chun perspective they do.
Wing Chun , my lineage in particular is extremely obsessive about minimum use of brute strength , any technique should take the same amount of effort whether executed in thin air or on the opponent.

This is only possible by maintaining a straight posture and maintaining the correct angles of the arms at all times and using the actions of the joints rather than muscular force.
Once these rules are broken then by default you will be using strength to try and execute techniques.
Ultimately it boils down to how high a level of skill you want to obtain in chi sau , if you want to achieve a high level then you should not be using any strength at all.
 

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