Leading senior citizens to the "Dark Side" - Right or wrong?

[Xue Sheng]

Oh, yeah, that's why I wrote such a long-winded post -- a serious question deserves some effort put into the answer, I think! Actually yours didn't sound aggressive, so sorry if I gave that impression. I could have asked for clarification in a better way.

I should open with the fact that I'm 61, like most of us here, not a spring chicken. Anyway ... here's another long-winded post. Sorry!

My opinion is that the more impressed I am by something, the farther away I am from it. An actor friend of mine once said that another actor was a God, and I took him to task for it: "nobody is a God, and when you put them on that pedestal, you prevent yourself from acquiring their level of skill." My friend later became the artistic director of a regional theatre, which is good.

I also have been impressed by great trumpet players (I play), such as Rafael Mendez or Wynton Marsalis playing Flight of The Bumblebee at a fast tempo. But in the last year (covid!) I've been learning to play the bloody instrument properly, and can now do things I've never done before, through hard work, attitude, and tips from experts, such as playing a solid, loud, "super C," an octave above a high C. Mendez and Marsalis are still top-flight players, but when I hear them, I think "they're doing that ... but I do this ... but if I change this, I can get closer to that." If I stay impressed, I limit my level of skill. I might never achieve their level of skill (especially circular breathing), but if I stay impressed and separate from them, I won't try, and I might not improve at all.

I've done a couple of things myself that impressed people, but I arrived there through work, attitude, and reflection. We've all done stuff that impressed people, but we don't consider ourselves impressive, I hope. Once we do the new thing, it becomes the new normal. We get in shape, we don't think we're Superman, but we can go up stairs more quickly and stand longer, for example.

Don't get me wrong: I understand beginner's mind, but I don't think that being impressed is necessary to having one. It might even be detrimental, because it reinforces a construct: "I cannot achieve that," whereas the truth is "maybe I can, maybe I can't. But I won't if I don't try."

So, while I have great respect for the masters, I'm only impressed the first time I see them do something. After that, I think "Hmm ... what are they doing there ... how did they do that ...?" And if the feat is years (or decades) away for me, I determine whether I have the time, ability and desire to make their skill a goal. At least, I try to understand what they are doing. I still respect their great skill, but to me, being impressed is time- and exposure-sensitive.

Somewhat relevant to the discussion, I wondered about ling kong jin (empty force), where the teacher waves his hands, and the students fall or bounce away, with no physical contact having been made. At first, I was impressed, but then dismayed by the negative comments about it as its being BS. Then I read a bit more about it, and came to believe that the truth is in-between. It's not meant to be an offensive or defensive technique, it's not meant to be used against anyone, and most importantly, the teacher is not showing off. Instead, he's showing how sensitive his students are, to his visual cues. If they are this sensitive, they should be able to read a partner/opponent's physical cues during push hands, and be sensitive to their own sensations.

When I heard about "energy balls" between the hands (e.g. during Zhan Zhuang), I was impressed when I felt that pull between my own hands. Wow! Energy! But then, with study, I've figured out what that really is: proprioception. We are fooling our body into thinking there's a ball between our hands, and the finer the movements we make between the hands, the greater the imagined sensation of a ball's being there. But that ability is also a good thing to have, because it indicates not this energy flowing between (in a electromagnetic-ish sense), but again, a heightened sensitivity, which can lead to other breakthroughs.

Who in this martial context has impressed me? Hmm. My Sifu (since 2006) has impressed me with his speed, skill in many forms, and tactile sensitivity ... but now I think of him warmly as more of a kindly uncle figure. I think he's from a world that doesn't display great feats unless they mean to teach them to you, so maybe I just haven't seen the wild stuff.

I agree with you that individuals exhibiting high levels of skill are rare these days, which is very unfortunate. I try not to think about it much, because they have a lot of wonderful gifts to share. I fear for the loss of their world, which to me is similar to the world of the Japanese carpenter, or Jiro the sushi chef. A world of care, respect, and precision. It reminds me of the world of my father and uncles, best exemplified by Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of Burt Munro in The World's Fastest Indian. Sometimes I feel like Brooksie in The Shawshank Redemption. The world's just gotten too damn fast.

Thanks for reading. I hope that makes sense.

I see that a number of posts have appeared since I started this one (before Covid, it seems), so I'll check them out when I get a chance. Sorry if I missed your responses.

And yes, the world has gotten to damn fast, and appears to have gotten even faster since the pandemic

 

[geezer]

The jump amazes me the most because everyone does the same jump.

I know...right?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Don't really know, depends on how you count, my shifu and his shifu only called it the long form. But talking with my shifu, it is 108 or 88, depends on if you count the repeats

Just curious, how long does it take to do the form at a normal slow pace? We go anywhere from 35-50 minutes depending on the pace of whoever the leader is. We take turns leading.

 

[Flying Crane]

Any Tai Chi Chuan you are doing is better than nothing.

Within reason. Some things are just really bad, might lead to injury. Sometimes better to just go for a walk and get gentle exercise that way instead.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

And yes, the world has gotten to damn fast, and appears to have gotten even faster since the pandemic

Yes, so true.

I guess we need to define terms, specifically "fa jing." I understand that what Chen Xiaowang was doing is "fa jin." What do you mean by "fa jing?"

sorry I meant fa Jin. i don’t speak Cantonese, the g was unintentional. My spelling isn’t great but the damn auto correct isn’t helping.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Within reason. Some things are just really bad, might lead to injury. Sometimes better to just go for a walk and get gentle exercise that way instead.

Ok fair enough. I often simplify things by looking at them through my very narrow view point.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok fair enough. I often simplify things by looking at them through my very narrow view point.

And I might be too much of a stickler for language. I sometimes interpret too much in the specific words used when I ought to just accept the spirit of the comment. 🙂

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just curious, how long does it take to do the form at a normal slow pace? We go anywhere from 35-50 minutes depending on the pace of whoever the leader is. We take turns leading.

Average student time, in class, is about 20 minutes. But it does depend on pace. on my own I generally come in around 30 minutes .

My Shifu once went to a conference with his wife and he said it was one of the best vacations he had in years. HIs wife would be in the conference and he spent the time doing taijiquan...for 6 to 7 hours a day, for 3 days, while she was in the conference

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

that's how my first shifu taught taijiquan and it is part of my second (main) shifu original curriculum. But you rarely, if ever, see it anymore. no one has the patients these days

It took two years of almost daily and sometimes twice daily classes to learn the long form. Some people are 5 years in and still working on the 3rd section. Patience is one of the 4 virtues on the wall at my Sifu’s kwoon.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Average student time, in class, is about 20 minutes. But it does depend on pace. on my own I generally come in 30 minutes .

My Shifu once went to a conference with his wife and he said it was one of the best vacations he had in years. HIs wife would be in the conference and he spent the time doing taijiquan...for 6 to 7 hours a day, for 3 days, while she was in the conference

Sometimes my Sifu would lead. I have done a 60 minute long form with him. My legs were shaking and threatening to burst into flame. And to think some people think that wushu is hard work!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Oh, yeah, that's why I wrote such a long-winded post -- a serious question deserves some effort put into the answer, I think! Actually yours didn't sound aggressive, so sorry if I gave that impression. I could have asked for clarification in a better way.

I should open with the fact that I'm 61, like most of us here, not a spring chicken. Anyway ... here's another long-winded post. Sorry!

My opinion is that the more impressed I am by something, the farther away I am from it. An actor friend of mine once said that another actor was a God, and I took him to task for it: "nobody is a God, and when you put them on that pedestal, you prevent yourself from acquiring their level of skill." My friend later became the artistic director of a regional theatre, which is good.

I also have been impressed by great trumpet players (I play), such as Rafael Mendez or Wynton Marsalis playing Flight of The Bumblebee at a fast tempo. But in the last year (covid!) I've been learning to play the bloody instrument properly, and can now do things I've never done before, through hard work, attitude, and tips from experts, such as playing a solid, loud, "super C," an octave above a high C. Mendez and Marsalis are still top-flight players, but when I hear them, I think "they're doing that ... but I do this ... but if I change this, I can get closer to that." If I stay impressed, I limit my level of skill. I might never achieve their level of skill (especially circular breathing), but if I stay impressed and separate from them, I won't try, and I might not improve at all.

I've done a couple of things myself that impressed people, but I arrived there through work, attitude, and reflection. We've all done stuff that impressed people, but we don't consider ourselves impressive, I hope. Once we do the new thing, it becomes the new normal. We get in shape, we don't think we're Superman, but we can go up stairs more quickly and stand longer, for example.

Don't get me wrong: I understand beginner's mind, but I don't think that being impressed is necessary to having one. It might even be detrimental, because it reinforces a construct: "I cannot achieve that," whereas the truth is "maybe I can, maybe I can't. But I won't if I don't try."

So, while I have great respect for the masters, I'm only impressed the first time I see them do something. After that, I think "Hmm ... what are they doing there ... how did they do that ...?" And if the feat is years (or decades) away for me, I determine whether I have the time, ability and desire to make their skill a goal. At least, I try to understand what they are doing. I still respect their great skill, but to me, being impressed is time- and exposure-sensitive.

Somewhat relevant to the discussion, I wondered about ling kong jin (empty force), where the teacher waves his hands, and the students fall or bounce away, with no physical contact having been made. At first, I was impressed, but then dismayed by the negative comments about it as its being BS. Then I read a bit more about it, and came to believe that the truth is in-between. It's not meant to be an offensive or defensive technique, it's not meant to be used against anyone, and most importantly, the teacher is not showing off. Instead, he's showing how sensitive his students are, to his visual cues. If they are this sensitive, they should be able to read a partner/opponent's physical cues during push hands, and be sensitive to their own sensations.

When I heard about "energy balls" between the hands (e.g. during Zhan Zhuang), I was impressed when I felt that pull between my own hands. Wow! Energy! But then, with study, I've figured out what that really is: proprioception. We are fooling our body into thinking there's a ball between our hands, and the finer the movements we make between the hands, the greater the imagined sensation of a ball's being there. But that ability is also a good thing to have, because it indicates not this energy flowing between (in a electromagnetic-ish sense), but again, a heightened sensitivity, which can lead to other breakthroughs.

Who in this martial context has impressed me? Hmm. My Sifu (since 2006) has impressed me with his speed, skill in many forms, and tactile sensitivity ... but now I think of him warmly as more of a kindly uncle figure. I think he's from a world that doesn't display great feats unless they mean to teach them to you, so maybe I just haven't seen the wild stuff.

I agree with you that individuals exhibiting high levels of skill are rare these days, which is very unfortunate. I try not to think about it much, because they have a lot of wonderful gifts to share. I fear for the loss of their world, which to me is similar to the world of the Japanese carpenter, or Jiro the sushi chef. A world of care, respect, and precision. It reminds me of the world of my father and uncles, best exemplified by Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of Burt Munro in The World's Fastest Indian. Sometimes I feel like Brooksie in The Shawshank Redemption. The world's just gotten too damn fast.

Thanks for reading. I hope that makes sense.

I see that a number of posts have appeared since I started this one (before Covid, it seems), so I'll check them out when I get a chance. Sorry if I missed your responses.

This is so well written and expressed! Thank you!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm guessing it is Fajin

fājìn, (發勁), sometimes misspelled as fajing,

I’m a famous missspeller.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sometimes my Sifu would lead. I have done a 60 minute long form with him. My legs were shaking and threatening to burst into flame. And to think some people think that wushu is hard work!

I should say that our long form Is quite a bit longer than what I usually see.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It took two years of almost daily and sometimes twice daily classes to learn the long form. Some people are 5 years in and still working on the 3rd section. Patience is one of the 4 virtues on the wall at my Sifu’s kwoon.

My Yang Shifu taught us fairly fast, but he likes to get the form taught then he went on correcting everyone for awhile

Sometimes my Sifu would lead. I have done a 60 minute long form with him. My legs were shaking and threatening to burst into flame. And to think some people think that wushu is hard work!

Part of that correction he gave was him saying stop, and having to hold the form until he got to you, and he did nt care what posture he stopped you in and made you hold. standing on one leg or two we all jsut waited. And what got me, as time went on, he'd stop everybody, correct everybody, then get to me last and correct nothing. So I stood there waiting while he corrected, but he did not feel I needed corrected, only wanted to make me stand I guess

 

[Flying Crane]

My Yang Shifu taught us fairly fast, but he likes to get the form taught then he went on correcting everyone for awhile

Part of that correction he gave was him saying stop, and having to hold the form until he got to you, and he did nt care what posture he stopped you in and made you hold. standing on one leg or two we all jsut waited. And what got me, as time went on, he'd stop everybody, correct everybody, then get to me last and correct nothing. So I stood there waiting while he corrected, but he did not feel I needed corrected, only wanted to make me stand I guess

And that made you even better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just curious, how long does it take to do the form at a normal slow pace? We go anywhere from 35-50 minutes depending on the pace of whoever the leader is. We take turns leading.

My 108 moves Taiji form only take 4 minute and 42 seconds.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My Yang Shifu taught us fairly fast, but he likes to get the form taught then he went on correcting everyone for awhile

Part of that correction he gave was him saying stop, and having to hold the form until he got to you, and he did nt care what posture he stopped you in and made you hold. standing on one leg or two we all jsut waited. And what got me, as time went on, he'd stop everybody, correct everybody, then get to me last and correct nothing. So I stood there waiting while he corrected, but he did not feel I needed corrected, only wanted to make me stand I guess

That’s an awesome story. That’s the stuff that kept me coming back. I’m a glutton for that brand of punishment.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My 108 moves Taiji form only take 4 minute and 42 seconds.

Is that you? Nice transitions. That’s quite fast. Nothing wrong with fast, I have had to do it as fast or as slow as I was able. Slow is harder in my opinion. My Sifu made us sit down deep on the legs for a long time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My Yang Shifu taught us fairly fast, but he likes to get the form taught then he went on correcting everyone for awhile

Part of that correction he gave was him saying stop, and having to hold the form until he got to you, and he did nt care what posture he stopped you in and made you hold. standing on one leg or two we all jsut waited. And what got me, as time went on, he'd stop everybody, correct everybody, then get to me last and correct nothing. So I stood there waiting while he corrected, but he did not feel I needed corrected, only wanted to make me stand I guess

Once in Sifu Woo’s gym in Hollywood we were practicing Tai chi While Sifu walked between us and gave corrections. He was hilariously brutal in his corrections. As he passed a lady that was in snake creeps down he said “ you know Mr. Kegel? We just lost him”. Then he looked at another long term student and said “it’s a good thing I didn’t eat any lunch today”. I loved him for that stuff. We would all just be silent but then laugh like hyenas after class about the things he would say. Another time in his Gung fu class he told us to ” feel your bunghole on top of your head when you move the horse stance” we tried to comply but after moving with us up and down the floor he stopped us and said “ now you tell me which one of you felt your bunghole on top of your head? That’s right, none of you!” We still laugh about those old days when we had not a clue what he really meant. Its a wonder that he tolerated us and our buffoonery, he must have been slightly entertained to have Moe, Larry, and Curley in his gym.

 

[mograph]

This is so well written and expressed! Thank you!

Thanks!