Kwans refused to be TKD

[bluewaveschool]

I'm going to ask again, post some link, videos, articles, whatever at all, to support your assertions as to how/what the founders felt/thought. Because you'll never sway any views without backing up what you say is the truth without more solid fact than your memories of conversations. At least the ITF people can point to the stuff Choi wrote, his auto-bio or the encyclpedia or other books/interview DVDs.

 

[puunui]

I'm going to ask again, post some link, videos, articles, whatever at all, to support your assertions as to how/what the founders felt/thought. Because you'll never sway any views without backing up what you say is the truth without more solid fact than your memories of conversations. At least the ITF people can point to the stuff Choi wrote, his auto-bio or the encyclpedia or other books/interview DVDs.

Read the Modern History translations if you want to know how the pioneers felt. And by the way, I don't care if you don't believe me or that I don't sway your views because you don't think I am backing up what I say. That's your problem, please don't attempt to make it mine. In fact, if you don't read any of my posts, I won't lose any sleep over it.

 

[bluewaveschool]

It's not that I don't think you aren't backing up what you say, it's that you ARE NOT backing up what you say. But hey, it's your credibility thats suffering, and I'm not losing any sleep over that.

 

[miguksaram]

It's not that I don't think you aren't backing up what you say, it's that you ARE NOT backing up what you say. But hey, it's your credibility thats suffering, and I'm not losing any sleep over that.

As far as I know Glenn has not brought a tape recorder everytime he talked to people like the late GM Lee, Won-kuk or some of the seniors of TKD. What he is describing is what was told to him, not something he read. So if you need proof, I would recommend that you go about the same way he did to get the proof of what he says, just find out where they are and go visit them.

I have found that a lot of seniors of TKD are very open to sharing their thoughts and memories.

 

[bluewaveschool]

As far as I know Glenn has not brought a tape recorder everytime he talked to people like the late GM Lee, Won-kuk or some of the seniors of TKD. What he is describing is what was told to him, not something he read. So if you need proof, I would recommend that you go about the same way he did to get the proof of what he says, just find out where they are and go visit them.

I have found that a lot of seniors of TKD are very open to sharing their thoughts and memories.

I would say that bringing a tape recorder every time would most likely be unreasonable, unless you were interviewing for papers/books/whatnot. But to ask for a singular piece of anything to back what he has repeatedly said relating to what the founders apparently univerally agreed upon (minus Gen. Choi), from any founder, I don't feel is too much to ask.

 

[miguksaram]

I would say that bringing a tape recorder every time would most likely be unreasonable, unless you were interviewing for papers/books/whatnot. But to ask for a singular piece of anything to back what he has repeatedly said relating to what the founders apparently univerally agreed upon (minus Gen. Choi), from any founder, I don't feel is too much to ask.

Then the Modern History of Taekwon Do is what you should read. That depicts time dates and people attending the meetings. It tells of who was in and who was out, origins of the kwans and what the hang ups were in forming KKW TKD.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It's not that I don't think you aren't backing up what you say, it's that you ARE NOT backing up what you say. But hey, it's your credibility thats suffering, and I'm not losing any sleep over that.

I think Puunui can only back up what he says but assuring the reader that he is repeating as best as he can remember some very valuable info given to him or shared with him by very important & influential figures in the development & history of TKD. He deserves kudos for this.
Now any reader or researcher must be careful in interpreting & weighing this vital info. One of the ways that this can be done & there are many, is to cross reference it with other accounts & historical info available.
I can honestly say that nothing so far that I have read gives me the impression that this educated & informed martial artist is being deceitful in any way on purpose. I thank him for providing us & any who may come to view this forum for his input, which I for one am most impressed by & grateful for.
What readers must do is make there own decisions on how to weigh & evaluate this info.

I also wish to be corrected when I miss something or may not be seeing it in a better light. Again Puunui has helped me at times with this. I trust that he will also be open to take in new info as well or too see info in another light as well. This is how true learning occurs.

That being said, TKD students need to know that they have been misled by both sides of the TKD historical discussion. TKD is not 2,000 years old & it was not created by any single person. Even Chang Hon or ITF TKD, which was the 1st Korean martial art to use the name TKD, was not created by a single man, Gen Choi. While is can be credited with being the founder, his system was a compilation & consolidation of many arts by many people from the 1940 & 50s till he passed away in 2002. He led a talented team & even he failed to give much credit to most of them. That is sad & simply not right, especially given the martial art ethos that many believe in

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Read the Modern History translations if you want to know how the pioneers felt.

I think that this piece of work is very important. It of course clearly dispels the 2,000 year old myth & that is important in & of itself. It also is a work done by what i would say are WTF TKD people. (I use the terms ITF & WTF to loosely & broadly paint the difference of the 2 major TKD groups) This is important, as it can not be dismissed as ITF propaganda. This work gives great insight into the happenings of the day & who were making it happen. It also clearly describes the dislike that many had for Gen Choi & why. This when coupled with the history of the times & the politics of Korea, can help us understand why Gen Choi was marginalized.
Now this written work does a great job of showing how WTF TKD came into being. It ignores the development of the ITF, post KKW inception. I think readers must understand that there is more than 1 TKD. therefore the history & developments, while they start at a common point, the 6 early kwans, in the 1960s, they take different paths, including the main 2, ITF & WTF.

 

[miguksaram]

I think that this piece of work is very important. It of course clearly dispels the 2,000 year old myth & that is important in & of itself. It also is a work done by what i would say are WTF TKD people. (I use the terms ITF & WTF to loosely & broadly paint the difference of the 2 major TKD groups) This is important, as it can not be dismissed as ITF propaganda. This work gives great insight into the happenings of the day & who were making it happen. It also clearly describes the dislike that many had for Gen Choi & why. This when coupled with the history of the times & the politics of Korea, can help us understand why Gen Choi was marginalized.
Now this written work does a great job of showing how WTF TKD came into being. It ignores the development of the ITF, post KKW inception. I think readers must understand that there is more than 1 TKD. therefore the history & developments, while they start at a common point, the 6 early kwans, in the 1960s, they take different paths, including the main 2, ITF & WTF.

First, you are better to say ITF & KKW TKD people instead of WTF. WTF, for its original purpose and not what it is trying to do today, is nothing more than the WGB for the sport aspect of KKW TKD. It has no say on the development of that art aspect of TKD. Since ITF is the organization that develops the curriculum of their TKD it is better to compare it to KKW not WTF.

As far as ignoring ITF development, what did it ignore? At that point ITF broke off into its own little world. As the ITF people claim to be more traditional than KKW TKD, that tends to tell me that they did not really develope all that much outside of the their claim to fame of SINE.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
(I use the terms ITF & WTF to loosely & broadly paint the difference of the 2 major TKD groups)

First, you are better to say ITF & KKW TKD people instead of WTF. WTF, for its original purpose and not what it is trying to do today, is nothing more than the WGB for the sport aspect of KKW TKD. It has no say on the development of that art aspect of TKD. Since ITF is the organization that develops the curriculum of their TKD it is better to compare it to KKW not WTF.

Fair point & one I understand well. But that is why I clearly stated (& requoted above) "loosely & broadly". Truth be told you are right & it is more accurate to say Chang Hon TKD & Kukki TKD than ITF & WTF. However the merger talks are always about ITF & WTF, plus the majority of people in my experience use ITF & WTF to distinguish between the 2 major groups.

As far as ignoring ITF development, what did it ignore? At that point ITF broke off into its own little world. As the ITF people claim to be more traditional than KKW TKD, that tends to tell me that they did not really develope all that much outside of the their claim to fame of SINE.

The Modern History of TKD by Lee & Kang accurately depicts the formative years of TKD & then the path taken by Kukki TKD. It does not mention Gen Choi, his Pioneers & what they did or how the ITF grew after the mid to late 1960s.
So to be more inclusive they could have included that branch of TKD & its seperate development. They didn't so maybe it should be retitled The Modern History of what would become Kukki TKD or Olympic sport TKD etc, but yes I know not WTF TKD

 

[leadleg]

First, you are better to say ITF & KKW TKD people instead of WTF. WTF, for its original purpose and not what it is trying to do today, is nothing more than the WGB for the sport aspect of KKW TKD. It has no say on the development of that art aspect of TKD. Since ITF is the organization that develops the curriculum of their TKD it is better to compare it to KKW not WTF.

As far as ignoring ITF development, what did it ignore? At that point ITF broke off into its own little world. As the ITF people claim to be more traditional than KKW TKD, that tends to tell me that they did not really develope all that much outside of the their claim to fame of SINE.

This not true, the WTF has for as long as I remember had a technical advisory commitee on the aspects of poomse and other tkd techniques. The book Learning and Teaching Taekwondo is written by mostly WTF leaders,this book was published by the WTF.The contents of this book are about the art of tkd and is in my opinion very well written and informative.
The WTF leaders have been going around giving seminars and visiting schools in the US longer than I've seen KKW people coming around. I say this because what they were teaching was the KKW way.
I would say the one should not be without the other,and they are not when I see the WTF telling us they need KKW proof for their new athlete cards. And the KKW is telling us what the standards will be for the WTF world poomse championships.
I have a WTF flag and a KKW flag , I am KKW certified but WTF style,that was how my seniors did their school, WTF flag before KKW, but not seperated.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I am KKW certified but WTF style

What does that even mean? I was under the impression that KKW = WTF (internationally), and not KKW = WTF + other groups. The other big groups out there aren't KKW. Not ATA, ITA or ITF. I was informed by someone that if I wanted KKW Dan rank, out with my Chang Hon set and in with WTF set.

 

[leadleg]

HUH?
WTF,OLYMPIC,KKW...all the same when speaking of style. I just always understood I was WTF.In the 80's people started saying kukki tkd,now you are KKW style and not WTF,that makes no sense to me.Having said that my instructor was one of the vice pres. of the WTF,maybe if he had been vp of KKW I would think differently.
Yes if you want to pass a KKW exam you need the Taegueks,but you need not throw out your chang hon,nor quit teaching them.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Part of the reason for the confusion is most people don't know about the politics or organizations of TKD. They simply want to train, sweat & beat the other person, whether it be in a tournament or a real fight. That being said the ITF was an international federation spreading TKD. So it only makes sense that for some/many a different international federation name was needed to balance, hence the WORLD TKD Fed. (WTF). Look they even look so much alike, except for 1 little letter. I have heard that in Korean the distinction may even be less. So it became in 1973 the ITF vs the WTF. Both held their won world championships that students vied to be a part of.
Another big reason for the confusion was that since 1971, Dr Kim Un Yong was the govt man in charge of TKD in south Korea as 6th president of the KTA. In 1972 he wore a 2nd hat at the same time as president of the KKW. Then the following year in 1973, he picked up a 3rd hat as president of the WTF. he wore all 3 hats at the same time till his arrest & subsequent conviction of corruption charges for which he serve time in prison.
The black belt certificate were issued by the KTA, till the KKW took over that duty. The KKW is the world TKD academy, with the WTF being the International Federation for the sport of TKD. Confusing right? Yes!
Let me make it more confusing: the black belt certificates, while all signed by Dr Kim, had a different times, different logos, including at times both the KKW & WTF logo. At times his signature would be as WTF president or KKW president. Then the 3 groups have now been headed by 3 leaders. Each group has their own set of duties. Cohesion may suffer, but the separation maybe needed in light of the past corruption & the fact that TKD is so important to Korea.
So I don't blame people for the confusion, nor do I make a big deal about it.

 

[puunui]

That being said the ITF was an international federation spreading TKD. So it only makes sense that for some/many a different international federation name was needed to balance, hence the WORLD TKD Fed. (WTF). Look they even look so much alike, except for 1 little letter. I have heard that in Korean the distinction may even be less. So it became in 1973 the ITF vs the WTF.

That is the ITF view, ITF vs. WTF. From the other side, it is Taekwondo, with the ITF being a private organization trying to horn in. The two sides are not equals, and never were.

Then the following year in 1973, he picked up a 3rd hat as president of the WTF. he wore all 3 hats at the same time till his arrest & subsequent conviction of corruption charges for which he serve time in prison.

That's not true. Dr. Kim stopped being KTA president in I want to say the early 90's. I remember that the new KTA president came to Hawaii in 1995 or so for a tournament. Dr. Kim moved the WTF offices out of the Kukkiwon in I want to say 2001 or so, and the Kukkiwon and WTF became separated.

As for Dr. Kim's arrest, that was a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally. It was stupid and foolish and we are still paying for that mistake, by having President Choue at the helm. My prediction is that Dr. Kim will be remembered as the person who got us into the Olympics, and President Choue will be remembered as the person who got us out of the Olympics.

The black belt certificate were issued by the KTA, till the KKW took over that duty. The KKW is the world TKD academy, with the WTF being the International Federation for the sport of TKD. Confusing right? Yes!

No, not really.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
That being said the ITF was an international federation spreading TKD. So it only makes sense that for some/many a different international federation name was needed to balance, hence the WORLD TKD Fed. (WTF). Look they even look so much alike, except for 1 little letter. I have heard that in Korean the distinction may even be less. So it became in 1973 the ITF vs the WTF.

That is the ITF view, ITF vs. WTF. From the other side, it is Taekwondo, with the ITF being a private organization trying to horn in. The two sides are not equals, and never were.

Come on Sir, you are not being reasonable here or at least you misunderstood me. I am only talking about root words in an attempt, weak one apparently to describe why many look at it as ITF & WTF, instead of some more approriate or accurate terms. I have heard that there is little difference in Korean hangul on how the ITF & WTF are written/translated. That was my only point.
Now you are correct, the ITF is not equal to the WTF.
The ITF is often described in a negative way when it is referred to as a private org. It was founded in Korea & listed with 2 govt entities as an international org. Once the ITF left Korea it did not receive the support from the govt that the WTF & south Korean TKD did. It also did not succeed in being accepted as a international sports org as it did not have the backing of Korea & had to battle the attempts of the military dictatorship, through the KCIA to destroy it, which would have silenced Gen Choi's loud voice of vocal opposition to the dictatorial regimes.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

That's not true. Dr. Kim stopped being KTA president in I want to say the early 90's. I remember that the new KTA president came to Hawaii in 1995 or so for a tournament. Dr. Kim moved the WTF offices out of the Kukkiwon in I want to say 2001 or so, and the Kukkiwon and WTF became separated.

Thank you Sir, I may not have known that. The KTA succession has been difficult for me to follow.

As for Dr. Kim's arrest, that was a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally. It was stupid and foolish and we are still paying for that mistake, by having President Choue at the helm. My prediction is that Dr. Kim will be remembered as the person who got us into the Olympics, and President Choue will be remembered as the person who got us out of the Olympics.

I do not join you in your lack of confidence in Dr Choue, but do agree that Dr Kim is the Olympic TKD Man! History must credit him as he was a genius, a hard worker that did not stop till he succeeded. There is no doubt about it.
Now again I sense your double standard coming to the surface
So are the nasty Korean politics only actually real or nasty when it comes to those you support?
Plus what do you mean by it was "a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally"? Who do you mean by Korea? There are many that are ashamed & embarrass because of his crimes.
Plus how do you explain millions of $ hidden in his home?
There is no doubt that Dr Kim did great things for TKD & we must rightfully credit him.
However not all of his tactics were above board. The Olympics has been plaqued with corruption & he played the game so well, helping to insure success for him, TKD & Korea.
Hopefully Kukki TKD will remain in the Olympics. If it doesn't, there will be many contributing factors, not all of which I think can be blamed on Dr Choue

 

[puunui]

So are the nasty Korean politics only actually real or nasty when it comes to those you support? Plus what do you mean by it was "a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally"? Who do you mean by Korea? There are many that are ashamed & embarrass because of his crimes. Plus how do you explain millions of $ hidden in his home?

Dr. Kim belonged on one political party in Korea, I forget the name at the moment, and he accepted an appointed seat in the Korean Assembly for which there was a vacancy. The other political party got upset with Dr. Kim and so when they came into power with the change in ROK Presidency, they targeted him for activities that the prior administration had him doing as a sports diplomat. This included giving olive branches to North Korea and fostering talks. Part of what Dr. Kim was doing was facilitating the giving of money and other gifts to North Korea through back channels. That money that they found in his house was to be used for that purpose. the opposition knew this and trumped up charges against him in an effort to tear him down, and by doing so, tearing down the prior administration and its policies. No one benefited from tearing Dr. Kim down, certainly not Taekwondoin.

The president who did this was paid back karmically when his own family was accused of misdeeds, and he ended up committing suicide by jumping off a mountain.

Later that same administration realized that they made a terrible mistake because they ruined a true international leader from Korea, who was a leader to the world, and not just Korea. Again, we are still feeling the ramifications of this stupid decision, in much the same way that the USAT is feeling the effects of the foolish decision by the USOC to intercede into the USTU, which was again for idiot, vindictive reasons.

Dr. Kim comes from a well educated wealthy family, and he also was employed by the Samsung corporation so he had more money than enough money. Dr. Kim is also not one to challenge the government so he accepted quietly accepted responsibility.

Recently, Dr. Kim's life story was featured in a series of newspaper articles which many Korean borns have told me was very touching and uplifting for them to read. Many didn't know much about Taekwondo, but they admired Dr. Kim's works and felt proud to be Korean through his efforts. After that series came out, which was also featured in many korean language newspapers in the US, not many Koreans have bad things to say about Dr. Kim, accept maybe those who resented or hated him prior to all that stuff happening.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Great post. I am well aware of the nasty Korean politics & how they have hurt TKD & people in TKD. I see how they impacted Dr Kim & Kukki TKD, but you seem not willing to see how nasty politics hurt Gen Choi & his TKD people. The knife cuts both ways Sir

 

[miguksaram]

This not true, the WTF has for as long as I remember had a technical advisory commitee on the aspects of poomse and other tkd techniques. The book Learning and Teaching Taekwondo is written by mostly WTF leaders,this book was published by the WTF.The contents of this book are about the art of tkd and is in my opinion very well written and informative.

If I understand correctly the advisory board is for technical matters when dealing with compeititon poomosae not the development. Yes, books can be written by WTF leaders, but they KKW certified instructors writing books on the KKW TKD system. They are not writing about a whole new system thought up by WTF advisory board.

The WTF leaders have been going around giving seminars and visiting schools in the US longer than I've seen KKW people coming around. I say this because what they were teaching was the KKW way.

Right....they are teaching the KKW way. Which just proves my point that while WTF handles the sport aspect of the TKD it is KKW who develops the system itself. To say you are practicing WTF style of TKD is technically not correct. The WTF reflects only what the KKW developed. They may tweak for purposes of competition, but the core is KKW TKD not WTF TKD.

I would say the one should not be without the other,and they are not when I see the WTF telling us they need KKW proof for their new athlete cards. And the KKW is telling us what the standards will be for the WTF world poomse championships.
I have a WTF flag and a KKW flag , I am KKW certified but WTF style,that was how my seniors did their school, WTF flag before KKW, but not seperated.

Ok...then answer me this; You say that WTF tells you you need KKW proof of certification. When I go for my next rank in TKD will the KKW ask me for my WTF membership of if I have participated in the World Poomsae Championships or any WTF related tournament?