Kung fu in MMA Wins

[Hanzou]

The video looks Muy Thai in the stand up and judo on take down!!!

Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.

Never ceases to amaze me….

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I did not finish watching, you know this is fake? It's not even well practice, it's very slow.

May be these 2 clips won't look too fake or too slow. They are the same guys in that demo.

CMA guys don't have to wear fancy uniform.

 

[Alan0354]

Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.

Never ceases to amaze me….

That's why when comes to real effective fight, there's certain ways that works and the other ways doesn't.

I think you and me are on the same page, all the exotic movement means nothing. To me as I said many many times already. MA is an art of kicking butt, if anyone wants grace and artistic, go learn ballet, forget MA.

It's so funny you see the drunken style, they have to pretend to be tipsy, also and the hand looks like holding a cup!!! Then monkey style has to scratch the neck occasionally!!!

When they start winning a fight, they start to look alike, which is MMA.

My main style is TKD, which in my school is really kick boxing, not traditional TKD. BUT I won't defend what I learn or insist on what I learn is the best. If I were younger and not injured and still practicing TKD, I would quit the moment I saw the first UFC!!!! Because what I learn was totally out dated and it's not effective in real fight. I would not think twice but to drop what I learn and go to a BJJ and wrestling class and learn to combine what I learn in TKD to mix them together. I sure would not just refuse change and blindly insist what I learned is the best......after I saw those strikers got creamed.

 

[Alan0354]

This is not an excuse. Just the reality because it's not as straight forward.

People take martial arts for many different reason so when you say Experts, who are you referring to?
If the Kung Fu teacher is an expert in kung fu forms, then I don't automatically expect him to be an expert in fighting. Just because he trains and studies kung fu doesn't mean that he knows it. It also doesn't mean that he techniques aren't valid. It just means that this specific teacher doesn't know how to use them because his expertise is in forms. So for me. I don't expect someone to know which techniques create the best result or how to win the fight. If I learn from them, then I will not be learning how to fight or use techniques from them. If they are really good with making martial arts forms look good, then my best route may be to use those martial arts to be an action actor or stunt double. Bruce Lee is a good example of how martial arts makes a movie fighting scenes more exciting. No real fighting experience is needed.

Then you have experts who know how to use martial arts techniques. These guys are the ones you want to learn from if you want to learn how to fight using martial arts techniques.

You also have martial arts experts who only care about fitness. Billy Blanks is a good example of that. He used to compete, but no he just does it for fitness.

You may look at this guy and call him a fake martial arts person. But he has applicable skills. He just chooses to focus on fitness. Which probably made him richer than many UFC fighters. Google says his net worth is $20 million.

If a martial arts expert claims to be able to fight using his technique, then he should be knowledgeable in that area. If a martial arts expert doesn't claim to be able to fight using the techniques, then that's ok too. Because he's being honest about his knowledge and what his knowledge consists of.

I guess we have different philosophy. If I want to learn arts, I'd find something else to learn. When I learn MA, only thing I care is how to win a fight. If I want to move gracefully, I would go learn modern dance( which I did learn some). If I want to express arts, I would show with music ( which I was I pro musician long time ago). MA is an art of kicking butt, everything they want to teach is about kicking butt, don't beautify it.

I am NOT for doing forms(kata), I picked a school that didn't stress on forms. I don't care how pretty, how artistic they look, it's useless in fights. To me, it's a total waste of time. We only practice form 2 weeks before the belt test, then forget them all right after the test.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.

Never ceases to amaze me….

The 4 punches combo right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook exist in CMA. When someone throws that combo, I won't be able to tell whether he may train CMA, boxing, kickboxing, or ...

 

[Alan0354]

Those aren't the rules of the sport. It's not MMA. Some of those people didn't need to be submitted. They got KOd on their feet.

Then I won't be interested, The stand up striking I learn in my TKD is very much the same, nothing new other than knees. I learn judo before also, if there's no ground fight, there's nothing I want to learn from that. They are just full contact fight.

 

[Alan0354]

The 4 punches combo right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook exist in CMA. When someone throws that combo, I won't be able to tell whether he may train CMA, boxing, kickboxing, or ...

I would like to see that in the original CMA. You have older videos of that......I mean before Bruce Lee's days to proof CMA actually have boxing hands, not learning after Bruce Lee?

Maybe, some kung fu finally are like the TKD school I went to over 30 years ago, start to be humble and adapt something lot more effective like boxing hands. We never do classic TKD punching because it's not effective. We didn't do big horse stand, instead we stand higher and be more mobile like boxing.

This is how I feel from Hanzou:

Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.

Never ceases to amaze me….

It is very obvious what techniques win a real fight as they all look the same...........Kick boxing and Muy Thai. That's the reason I have a lot of respect towards Muy Thai, they were pretty much fighting like how they fight today AND they whooped a lot of butts back in the 60s before Bruce Lee. I won't be surprised Lee pay attention to Muy Thai as it is actually effective.

I never saw any kung fu fight like kick boxing with jabs and all before Bruce Lee's days, in fact, Bruce Lee shocked the MA circle fighting like this. It was completely new to them.

So if you said kung fu have all these, please find some old video that has these from the older days.

Now, that's nothing wrong learning from what works, I would have a lot more respect towards them if they say they learn and adapt to the new world. Just don't say they have it originally. Just like TKD did NOT have anything like that, only my teacher learned and adapt boxing into the school.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would like to see that in the original CMA. You have older videos of that......I mean before Bruce Lee's days to proof CMA actually have boxing hands, not learning after Bruce Lee?

It's in the 2 men long fist form "扑按对打 Pu An Dui Da" that I learn back in 1964. I'm not sure when was Bruce Lee's day. But I believe he was still in Hong Kong in 1964. I don't have video for that form.

Long fist have jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, spiral punch, ...

 

[Alan0354]

It's in the 2 men long fist form "扑按对打 Pu An Dui Da" that I learn back in 1964. I'm not sure when was Bruce Lee's day. But I believe he was still in Hong Kong in 1964. I don't have video for that form.

Long fist have jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, spiral punch, ...

I can't find anything on " 扑按对打 Pu An Dui Da", I know how to read a little chinese, it's 2 people fighting each other. I have to see the video to judge. I never seen any kung fu have hands like boxing, not even close. What is the name of the kung fu style?

Bruce Lee's days were 1970 when he made the Big Boss to show case his techniques. That was stunning to the MA community and to the public because nobody seen fights like this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The video looks Muy Thai in the stand up and judo on take down!!!

Why does this shock you? I'm pretty sure I made a long post about See post #193. Where I go through a Muay Boran form and talk about the similar techniques there. Remember the original post where I told you that the side Kick to the Knee was also in Kung Fu, and and others stated that the exact same technique can be found in other systems, and you are surprised that they look the same?

Muay Thai Boran has a Punching form. Jow Ga has a punching form. I will give you the kung Fu equivalent the techniques here.

Punches, Knee strikes, Elbow Strikes, Throws, Grappling and Escapes are going to have similarities across systems.

But Kung Fu is not Muay Thai.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is much better than what I saw in kung fu. The video is very MMA to me, using Muy Thai with take down. It would be nice to let it play out after they are on the ground.

If they have good ground game and if I were to look for a school, it will be in my consideration. This is very much MMA to me already.

Kung Fu ground game training is different depending on the school and students, who attend. If the students aren't interested then the school is most likely not going to teach it. They may teach Kung Fu but they also have to keep the school open. Everyone that joins a Kung Fu school doesn't do so to learn to fight. Ignore that fact and your school will go out of business. Most Kung Fu school will probably teach ground fighting concepts. (If they do decide to teach it.)

In street fighting ground fighting is often not the goal. BJJ will tell you the same thing. Because of this many Kung Fu schools neglect the importance of being able to escape the ground when someone is on top of you. This is why Kung Fu Wang says that Chinese Wrestling is important. If you cannot get your opponent on the ground then your ground fighting techniques are not going to help much. We already see this in UFC as we see fighters are getting better at not being taken to the ground. The reverse of this is also true. If you have no ground fighting skills then your striking skills will be come useless when you are on the ground.

In terms of fighting on the street, Your best option is to stay on your feet. Once you are on the ground you become vulnerable to other attacks from other people that may come in, and you lose the ability to run away if needed.

There are a lot of things you would do in a street fight that you wouldn't do in UFC, like hit someone with a cane or stab them with a knife, so you can't look at UFC ground game and think it's going to be a total solution or the best solution in a ground street fight. There have been UFC fighters who have learned this the hard way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What you’re seeing is the purposeful reduction of ground fighting in order to make the fights more “entertaining”. Dana White especially has a distaste for it, which is why you’re seeing UFC matches looking more and more like kickboxing fights.

Thankfully other MMA outlets are more friendly to grappling.

No you see the same thing in other MMA arenas as well. It's not just the UFC.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's so funny you see the drunken style, they have to pretend to be tipsy, also and the hand looks like holding a cup!!! Then monkey style has to scratch the neck occasionally!!!

These are not the the fighting applications in Drunken Style nor in Monkey. Drunken Style fighting application uses a lot of bumping, grappling, and off angle punches. non-fighting applications and expecting them to be fighting applications and I don't know why. For example, if that's your starting point for a drunken style fight applications then you have a misunderstanding of what you should be looking for.

Jow Ga has drunken style techniques in them and none are as you described. None of it requires that we pretend to look tipsy. That doesn't even come up in our training. For one technique we talk about slipping a punch and landing an uppercut under the jaw hinge. If you know that pretending to be Tipsy isn't a realistic fighting application, then stop looking there as a way to determine if something is viable for fighting.

I think you like the flashy stuff which is why you were drawn to it in the past. You made an assumption that the flashy stuff were actually fighting techniques., hence your bad experience with it.

 

[Hanzou]

No you see the same thing in other MMA arenas as well. It's not just the UFC.

Incorrect. One Championship for example is a lot more friendly towards ground fighters than UFC is.

 

[Hanzou]

That's why when comes to real effective fight, there's certain ways that works and the other ways doesn't.

I think you and me are on the same page, all the exotic movement means nothing. To me as I said many many times already. MA is an art of kicking butt, if anyone wants grace and artistic, go learn ballet, forget MA.

I'm forced to agree. Hence the "fluff" I was talking about in earlier posts in this thread. All of the pageantry and flowery movements melt away when Kung Fu exponents start fighting. So that forces me to ask; Why are you doing all of those forms and ridiculous stances if in the end you're just going to look like a sloppy kickboxer?

Meanwhile when we see people actually fighting with BJJ for example, we can recognize the movements rather quickly and make a direct line between training and application. For example;

https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1

Clearly Rubber Guard to omoplata leading to chump getting their face smashed. Eddie Bravo is in buddha heaven (aka his huge mansion) smoking a joint to this.

 

[Hanzou]

The 4 punches combo right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook exist in CMA. When someone throws that combo, I won't be able to tell whether he may train CMA, boxing, kickboxing, or ...

Yet it looks better when done by Boxers and Kickboxers. Almost as if they spend far more time honing those actual techniques instead of jamming in fluff like Crane Beaks and Tiger palms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So if you said kung fu have all these, please find some old video that has these from the older days.

Video of old Kung Fu. Including the double upper cut that was in the Muay Boran video

Older video. Shows the hook.

This form has both what would be considered Monkey techniques and it uses a couple of drunken boxing techniques. Specifically this picture here. Watch the the video and you will see that this does not look like someone who is pretending to be drunk.

Alan if you can't understand what I've been saying and pointing out then you probably won't ever understand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Video of old Kung Fu. Including the double upper cut that was in the Muay Boran video

Older video. Shows the hook.

This form has both what would be considered Monkey techniques and it uses a couple of drunken boxing techniques. Specifically this picture here. Watch the the video and you will see that this does not look like someone who is pretending to be drunk.

View attachment 27255

Alan if you can't understand what I've been saying and pointing out then you probably won't ever understand.

Same kung fu system. Very practical

 

[jayoliver00]

Kung Fu ground game training is different depending on the school and students, who attend. If the students aren't interested then the school is most likely not going to teach it. They may teach Kung Fu but they also have to keep the school open. Everyone that joins a Kung Fu school doesn't do so to learn to fight.

I think you're missing a big component of having "to keep the school open", which is the competition aspect. Having active fighters & competitors in your school, generates a lot of interests & excitement among the other students. This will bring in more students & further promote your style & yourself/gym. But you have to be open to the aspects of MMA fighting, which is what's dominating the MA world.

But actually, it's BJJ that's dominating in terms of bringing in students. I'm in a State that's very Liberal, so during this Delta variant Covid19 spread, we have to wear masks again and everyone's fearful, esp. in a Lib, 80% Biden voting State; yet there was like 30-35 kids in our BJJ Competition Team class yesterday (all legal under our Governor's mandates for gym operations).

 

[Hanzou]

Video of old Kung Fu. Including the double upper cut that was in the Muay Boran video

Older video. Shows the hook.

This form has both what would be considered Monkey techniques and it uses a couple of drunken boxing techniques. Specifically this picture here. Watch the the video and you will see that this does not look like someone who is pretending to be drunk.

View attachment 27255

Alan if you can't understand what I've been saying and pointing out then you probably won't ever understand.

What’s the point of learning all of that if the end result looks like the Lei tai video?