Kung fu does not contain punches !?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

one yoda and 10 stupid idiots? good idea for movie!

Not sure that's entirely accurate - if what Jow Ga stated is a correct translation of what you were trying to say I'm fairly certain a lot of people here would agree with it. God knows the amount of time it took me to be able to do what he calls a driving force punch correctly, without accidentally throwing a 'punch' instead.

 

[Anyan]

God knows the amount of time it took me to be able to do what he calls a driving force punch correctly, without accidentally throwing a 'punch' instead.

Are you have video?

I see at ALL (without Chinese) videos Youtube, that peaple doing many mistakes.....

For examples:

its man have many critical error that makes your kungfu ineffective!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure that's entirely accurate - if what Jow Ga stated is a correct translation of what you were trying to say I'm fairly certain a lot of people here would agree with it. God knows the amount of time it took me to be able to do what he calls a driving force punch correctly, without accidentally throwing a 'punch' instead.

It's definitely not the easiest thing to learn. The concept is simple but getting the brain to make the body work together like that is a real challenge.

 

[Anyan]

It's definitely not the easiest thing to learn. The concept is simple but getting the brain to make the body work together like that is a real challenge.

That to connect to the harmonious unity body, emotions and intentions of the mind, it is necessary to understand the essence of the movement.

it's not any hard.

 

[clfsean]

That to connect to the harmonious unity body, emotions and intentions of the mind, it is necessary to understand the essence of the movement.

it's not any hard.

Yeah .. that's called Luk Hop or 6 Harmonies. Chinese theory. Anybody studying TCMA should be familiar with them & usage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How many people have punching bags that look like this?

 

[Dinkydoo]

I'm not sure there actually is a difference between how most martial art styles connect a punch; I've experienced training in a few striking styles now and I don't think that any of them prefer to use just the arm/shoulder to punch rather than having the whole body connected behind the strike with proper mechanics. Sure, sometimes a jab can be more of a flick and there are different ways of generating power (like some of the hammer fists in Northern Mantis where it is more like a whip motion), but generally speaking, there are probably much more occassions where having your body behind the strike is favoured. Even with one of those aforementioned hammer fists a little flick of the waist at the right moment makes a big difference.

A punch/palm strike/kick may collapse someone, drive them backwards or both. It really depends on the intent of the striker and the body target - if I flick a front kick at your stomach then it might collapse you, but probably not push you back far. If I throw my body behind a front teep from hell (where I'm moving in at the time and my legs between front to back are kind of like a pendulum), there is a strong chance that you'll be pushed backwards and buckle over. On the other hand, no matter how hard a lead hook connects with a jaw, the receiver is not going to fly backwards as with the front kick - and that's partially to do with the target and the strike having a shorter range of motion, meaning there's going to be less of a driving force.

Maybe I've missed something, but after a long day at work and training, that's my take on it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You'll be surprised at how rare it is for people to punch with the weight of their body. The most common is to use the hips and pivot on the ball of the foot. This adds power but it doest throw the weight into the punch. I can show this better than I can explain it.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Cool. If you have the time and desire at any stage then I'd be interested in seeing a demo (or even just a clip of some sparring....whatever) where you show this.

My boxing coach goes on about kinnetic linkage quite a lot and what he means is that although we are turning our waist, the power should be generated from the foot pushing off the ground like a pedal, all the way up to the fist. This, mostly with a more subtle foot pivot, is what i've seen used before when doing kung fu although in addition to this, we did have strikes generated from a more 'sliding' motion as we put forward pressure on an opponent - especially in wing chun - in order to connect your whole body behind the punch without pivoting. Maybe this is what you mean - I was pretty tired last night!

 

[geezer]

Power generation is way too difficult to explain in words, or even words and video, for me to attempt. The best I can do is a really simplified generalization derived from something posted here on MT a few years back by Alan Orr. That is that punching with the whole body involves either dropping, rising, turning or pressing-forward and then conducting the energy efficiently forward through the fist and into the target without bleeding off force.

As to wether that force is a push or a penetrating impact that drops the opponent depends on the mechanics and timing of how that energy is released. At least it is in the kung fu I studied years back. My old sifu demonstrated this on me more than once. The experience was ....memorable. As to the OP's assertions ....if I may put this kindly, they do not describe the kung fu I have experienced.

Here's a gentle demonstration of the two kinds of "release" I am talking about:

BTW the curly-haired kid receiving the punches at the beginning now 60 years old! (yours truly).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks for the video

I would hate to be the "demo boy" in your class lol. Good video. It shows the difference between a punch that pushes and a punch that collapses and how the body reacts to it the punch. The pushing punch slams you into the wall which looks impressive visually, but the other punch that "bites into you" and collapses you. It shows clearly the pushing force vs collapsing force.

That is that punching with the whole body involves either dropping, rising, turning or pressing-forward and then conducting the energy efficiently forward through the fist and into the target without bleeding off force.

This is how I understand it as well. You can add direction and alignment into it that description as well such as downward and upward punches. If the fist isn't properly aligned the the force will exit the wrist when you don't want it too. A common example of force exiting the wrist is when a person punches (jab or cross) a heavy bag and their wrist collapses giving the sensation as if the wrist was going to break.

 

[Anyan]

People are too complicate everything - technique is simple! ....... But otherwise the instructors not would receive a steady income from students

 

[Anyan]

The center line of kungfu training is to work with the energy of Qi
- without it, the technique will not work!

 

[Anyan]

in this video very well shows the essence of the martial arts and works with the energy of qi.
The old Chinese masters are not so good)))) 8:20

 

[Bagh]

A very interesting topic, indeed.
The topic starter in his video spoke about plenty of questions. I would divide them into two areas - pure mechanics and power generation.
So, at first my two cents to the pure mechanics.
Where does it come from. The topic starter is a russian guy and there is a common discourse in the russian boxing theory, antinomy punch-push. The main things as I remember are speed and collision time. A punch is fast, a push is slow. A collision time is not less important. A punch has a short collision time, a push has a long collision time. When a collision time is too short and transfer of energy does not occur, it is not a punch or push. it is a touch. A relatively slow blow with a short collision time is still a punch, but a relatively fast blow with a long collision time becomes a push. That is why returning motion is so necessary. Of course differential time is split seconds.
Let us go now to kungfu&karate strikes. Let us take for consideration a straight punch. Most common, as it was said, it has some "freezing" at moment of impact. It automatically makes this strike a push, that is why topic starter says "no punches in kungfu". It does not matter so much for weapon strike and he supposes that such unarmed strike is only imitation of
weapon thrust and furthermore "kungfu" itself is a "translation" of weapon techniques to the unarmed combat.
I would add, watching a real TCMA, it has no strikes into head, all strikes and defences are for the body. It makes not much sense if we do not suppose that these techniques are quite recently evolved from weaponry techniques.
If we make digging into history, all striking systems come from weaponry styles. The old english boxing comes from fencing, there were much more body punches, and using of parries similar to hard karate blocks. So the old english boxing was much more akin to kungfu&karate, than to modern western boxing, and it is a question for serious analysis what alterations came from using the gloves and what from further evolution from armed to unarmed combat.
Nevertheless, it remains a riddle for me with that "freezing", it is something unique, what it is its real purpose? Even with the weapon, it is more chances to miss than to hit, because most time the opponent is lucky enough to take a defense, and it is better to return to guard position. The only possibilities I can think of, that it is for learning purposes or for performance. I saw a pair of chinese masters, they return the hand with grace many pro boxers can envy.

 

[Bagh]

to power generation
Don`t know if Anyan has watched this video.

A karate guy explains a karate punch.

 

[Anyan]

to power generation
Don`t know if Anyan has watched this video.

A karate guy explains a karate punch.

Tnx! Yes, this is exactly what I said!


Just push technique must be slightly different: the elbow necessarily lowered down, arm slightly bent at the elbow, and the movement is divided into three phases:
1. push foot
2. The rotation of the body
3. straightening his hands at the end with a little tap body back

 

[Bagh]

Hmm... Honestly to say, I do not catch you ideas.
You may PM me in russian, if you wish.
1- It is not "push technique", it is a preparatory exercise to help a beginner to understand the mechanics of the punch (driving force as JowGaWolf says, Dantian strike as you say). This video is only one(maybe first) of the serie Shilov made to the topic.
2- the movement can not be divided, movements must be added together.
3- Shilov had spoken about this. There is no option at the end for hands to straighten or for body to lean back.
What you are writing about looks like repeating "bruce lee 3 inch punch". It has the roots in kungfu, yes, but in first turn it is a hocus-pokus.
You have started an interesting topic, but it is interesting only from cross-cultural view, that is why it attracts so little attention. People who are practicing martial arts begin to perceive their system`s methods of power generation as natural although they are not so in substance and may be not perceived as such from other cultures standpoint of view.

 

[Anyan]

Hmm... Honestly to say, I do not catch you ideas.
You may PM me in russian, if you wish.
1- It is not "push technique", it is a preparatory exercise to help a beginner to understand the mechanics of the punch (driving force as JowGaWolf says, Dantian strike as you say). This video is only one(maybe first) of the serie Shilov made to the topic.
2- the movement can not be divided, movements must be added together.
3- Shilov had spoken about this. There is no option at the end for hands to straighten or for body to lean back.
What you are writing about looks like repeating "bruce lee 3 inch punch". It has the roots in kungfu, yes, but in first turn it is a hocus-pokus.
You have started an interesting topic, but it is interesting only from cross-cultural view, that is why it attracts so little attention. People who are practicing martial arts begin to perceive their system`s methods of power generation as natural although they are not so in substance and may be not perceived as such from other cultures standpoint of view.

Bla-bla-bla

 

[geezer]

Bla-bla-bla

s://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsYSUEXmA9E&list=RDbsYSUEXmA9E#t=4