krav maga video on joint manipulations; im not a fan

[hoshin1600]

i watched this video to see how krav uses joint manipulations.

i was really hoping to see something good since Krav claims to be real self defense. i do understand that one instructor and one video should not be a reflection of an entire art but this video is a good catalyst for discussion. im going to give it a critique, let others post and ill come back to give some thoughts in another post.

the first sentence out of his mouth made me raise an eyebrow. he called what he is about to teach as a wrist manipulation but then says that he is talking about anything on the arm. so why did he call it a wrist manipulation? i think the better terminology would be joint manipulation. small detail yes, but it stood out to me that the lack of detailed terminology might be an indicator that he doesnt know the material that well. ill let it go and continue on.....

next he says;
"we want to remember that when we deal with that material in the art, we apply manipulation to the wrist for two purposes. one is a defensive purpose, and we have to keep in mind that the art to some degree, was designed for the law enforcement community as well. therefore you cant just hit everybody and sometimes its easier to solve the problem with wrist manipulations.

he continues to say that he also uses it for take downs. at this point in the video he hasnt demonstrated anything and im already disappointed.

for one, the part i put in italic is screaming apology because he doesnt believe it works. the words he uses is a direct apology and justification because he knows people are going to watch the video and say " why not just punch the dude, it would be more effective" he feels it doesnt work because he doesnt know how , why and when to apply it. so he justifies using the manipulation saying its for law enforcement because they are not allowed to punch.

when he does the technique he is grasping only the 4 fingers at the third joint of the green belts hand and not grasping the thumb as well. i believe that when you do this the receiver of the joint lock has the equal ability to grasp your thumb as a counter move. so when i grab the hand i also grab the thumb as well.
i hope i explained that well enough. for you guys that use this technique do you grasp the thumb or just the fingers?

next he gives examples of how this manipulation can be applied " in many many ways"
this is where i cringe and yell at the computer screen.
so your a Krav self defense guru and your going to show the same old lame wrist and lapel grab as an attack??? this is a perfect example of why people think this stuff doesnt work. these attacks are lame and unrealistic. everybody and their brother who knew someone who had a cousin who did karate did these exact same wrist grabs and defense. as martial artists we all know this is a static non realistic attack why is this still being taught?

so disappointing. this video was on par with a Mcdojo video.
but the kick in the pants was that all the comments on Youtube were about how great it was. blahh

 

[Anarax]

i watched this video to see how krav uses joint manipulations.

i was really hoping to see something good since Krav claims to be real self defense. i do understand that one instructor and one video should not be a reflection of an entire art but this video is a good catalyst for discussion. im going to give it a critique, let others post and ill come back to give some thoughts in another post.

the first sentence out of his mouth made me raise an eyebrow. he called what he is about to teach as a wrist manipulation but then says that he is talking about anything on the arm. so why did he call it a wrist manipulation? i think the better terminology would be joint manipulation. small detail yes, but it stood out to me that the lack of detailed terminology might be an indicator that he doesnt know the material that well. ill let it go and continue on.....

next he says;
"we want to remember that when we deal with that material in the art, we apply manipulation to the wrist for two purposes. one is a defensive purpose, and we have to keep in mind that the art to some degree, was designed for the law enforcement community as well. therefore you cant just hit everybody and sometimes its easier to solve the problem with wrist manipulations.

he continues to say that he also uses it for take downs. at this point in the video he hasnt demonstrated anything and im already disappointed.

for one, the part i put in italic is screaming apology because he doesnt believe it works. the words he uses is a direct apology and justification because he knows people are going to watch the video and say " why not just punch the dude, it would be more effective" he feels it doesnt work because he doesnt know how , why and when to apply it. so he justifies using the manipulation saying its for law enforcement because they are not allowed to punch.

when he does the technique he is grasping only the 4 fingers at the third joint of the green belts hand and not grasping the thumb as well. i believe that when you do this the receiver of the joint lock has the equal ability to grasp your thumb as a counter move. so when i grab the hand i also grab the thumb as well.
i hope i explained that well enough. for you guys that use this technique do you grasp the thumb or just the fingers?

next he gives examples of how this manipulation can be applied " in many many ways"
this is where i cringe and yell at the computer screen.
so your a Krav self defense guru and your going to show the same old lame wrist and lapel grab as an attack??? this is a perfect example of why people think this stuff doesnt work. these attacks are lame and unrealistic. everybody and their brother who knew someone who had a cousin who did karate did these exact same wrist grabs and defense. as martial artists we all know this is a static non realistic attack why is this still being taught?

so disappointing. this video was on par with a Mcdojo video.
but the kick in the pants was that all the comments on Youtube were about how great it was. blahh

Z-lock is an effective technique, but I agree the video did a poor job of showing/explaining it.

Howcast is known for these type of videos. Check out the superb sword techniques in their video below.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Alternatives to punching are often going to receive the question of "why not just punch them?" The answer, for me, is pretty much always, "You could. This is just another option."

As for the applications shown, grabs happen (most often as a lead in to action by the other hand). Static applications are the best starting points because they are easy to apply and easy to avoid injury on, so most locks are taught (and demo'd) from relatively static positions. I can get this same basic lock on a punch if things present right, but really locks like this aren't going to often be a best response to a punch. Locks are going to be more reliable when someone grabs.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Howcast is known for these type of videos. Check out the superb sword techniques in their video below.

Holy ****. Please tell me that's a parody video.

 

[Anarax]

Holy ****. Please tell me that's a parody video.

I wish it were

 

[Headhunter]

Fact is a lot of online videos are from fakes because they want to impress people because they have little confidence in themselves. Most legit don't even bother with these kind of videos because they'll teach in their school they don't need to show off

 

[marques]

This is all low level. BUT I would not blame any art/name in special. It is the most normal online and offline.

ALSO, I don’t want to say it is all BS out there. The thing is people should stick with teaching only what they really know. But then money talks and they start selling whatever clients are looking for. (Need confidence? Let’s clap whatever you do; and I have seen all class clapping, several times, the 2 days I went to one place...)

For a while I trained jujitsu and there joint locks were like this, if performed by the brown/black belts because it could be even worse. Ground game, a joke. (I applied techniques watched on YouTube, never trained before.) On the other hand, they had great Judo and it would be a great Judo school. With little students, because plenty of a Judo schools around...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Z-lock is an effective technique, but I agree the video did a poor job of showing/explaining it.

Howcast is known for these type of videos. Check out the superb sword techniques in their video below.

My take on that video: I had no idea I was as good as I am at kenjutsu. That dude's supposedly an "expert", and clearly he is, given how easily he walked around the other two. I'm certain I could do that.

 

[now disabled]

Holy ****. Please tell me that's a parody video.

No it ain't unfortunately

 

[now disabled]

i watched this video to see how krav uses joint manipulations.

i was really hoping to see something good since Krav claims to be real self defense. i do understand that one instructor and one video should not be a reflection of an entire art but this video is a good catalyst for discussion. im going to give it a critique, let others post and ill come back to give some thoughts in another post.

the first sentence out of his mouth made me raise an eyebrow. he called what he is about to teach as a wrist manipulation but then says that he is talking about anything on the arm. so why did he call it a wrist manipulation? i think the better terminology would be joint manipulation. small detail yes, but it stood out to me that the lack of detailed terminology might be an indicator that he doesnt know the material that well. ill let it go and continue on.....

next he says;
"we want to remember that when we deal with that material in the art, we apply manipulation to the wrist for two purposes. one is a defensive purpose, and we have to keep in mind that the art to some degree, was designed for the law enforcement community as well. therefore you cant just hit everybody and sometimes its easier to solve the problem with wrist manipulations.

he continues to say that he also uses it for take downs. at this point in the video he hasnt demonstrated anything and im already disappointed.

for one, the part i put in italic is screaming apology because he doesnt believe it works. the words he uses is a direct apology and justification because he knows people are going to watch the video and say " why not just punch the dude, it would be more effective" he feels it doesnt work because he doesnt know how , why and when to apply it. so he justifies using the manipulation saying its for law enforcement because they are not allowed to punch.

when he does the technique he is grasping only the 4 fingers at the third joint of the green belts hand and not grasping the thumb as well. i believe that when you do this the receiver of the joint lock has the equal ability to grasp your thumb as a counter move. so when i grab the hand i also grab the thumb as well.
i hope i explained that well enough. for you guys that use this technique do you grasp the thumb or just the fingers?

next he gives examples of how this manipulation can be applied " in many many ways"
this is where i cringe and yell at the computer screen.
so your a Krav self defense guru and your going to show the same old lame wrist and lapel grab as an attack??? this is a perfect example of why people think this stuff doesnt work. these attacks are lame and unrealistic. everybody and their brother who knew someone who had a cousin who did karate did these exact same wrist grabs and defense. as martial artists we all know this is a static non realistic attack why is this still being taught?

so disappointing. this video was on par with a Mcdojo video.
but the kick in the pants was that all the comments on Youtube were about how great it was. blahh

The lock he tried to apply from the first wrist grap was a poor form of nikkyo an the first thing he did was umm strange as really to me that was a kinda maybe ikkyo or in fact gokkyo (due to the wrist turn maybe ) which is as you will know really more to do with the elbow and the body mechanics of applying it

And you are right sir trying to apply it the way he did his ummm thumb going to make it vunerable as you pointed out

He also failed to show as he mentioned a take down ...ok he did what I would call nikkyo but you have to follow that up no matter what you do as it only the first stage


and punching well in real life I would suggest that you might just have to do that to "persuade " the oppenent to actually give you his arm lol or as @gpseymour puts it what he gives you ...I'd put it more like I want it so your gonna give it and I'm gonna make you give me the opening

the comments on you tube lol well I guess the only thing he actually did right was the start of nikkyo and the guy went to his knees that might look good but that certainly is not a take down to me

 

[now disabled]

i watched this video to see how krav uses joint manipulations.

i was really hoping to see something good since Krav claims to be real self defense. i do understand that one instructor and one video should not be a reflection of an entire art but this video is a good catalyst for discussion. im going to give it a critique, let others post and ill come back to give some thoughts in another post.

the first sentence out of his mouth made me raise an eyebrow. he called what he is about to teach as a wrist manipulation but then says that he is talking about anything on the arm. so why did he call it a wrist manipulation? i think the better terminology would be joint manipulation. small detail yes, but it stood out to me that the lack of detailed terminology might be an indicator that he doesnt know the material that well. ill let it go and continue on.....

next he says;
"we want to remember that when we deal with that material in the art, we apply manipulation to the wrist for two purposes. one is a defensive purpose, and we have to keep in mind that the art to some degree, was designed for the law enforcement community as well. therefore you cant just hit everybody and sometimes its easier to solve the problem with wrist manipulations.

he continues to say that he also uses it for take downs. at this point in the video he hasnt demonstrated anything and im already disappointed.

for one, the part i put in italic is screaming apology because he doesnt believe it works. the words he uses is a direct apology and justification because he knows people are going to watch the video and say " why not just punch the dude, it would be more effective" he feels it doesnt work because he doesnt know how , why and when to apply it. so he justifies using the manipulation saying its for law enforcement because they are not allowed to punch.

when he does the technique he is grasping only the 4 fingers at the third joint of the green belts hand and not grasping the thumb as well. i believe that when you do this the receiver of the joint lock has the equal ability to grasp your thumb as a counter move. so when i grab the hand i also grab the thumb as well.
i hope i explained that well enough. for you guys that use this technique do you grasp the thumb or just the fingers?

next he gives examples of how this manipulation can be applied " in many many ways"
this is where i cringe and yell at the computer screen.
so your a Krav self defense guru and your going to show the same old lame wrist and lapel grab as an attack??? this is a perfect example of why people think this stuff doesnt work. these attacks are lame and unrealistic. everybody and their brother who knew someone who had a cousin who did karate did these exact same wrist grabs and defense. as martial artists we all know this is a static non realistic attack why is this still being taught?

so disappointing. this video was on par with a Mcdojo video.
but the kick in the pants was that all the comments on Youtube were about how great it was. blahh

Watched again and forget the gokkyo comment it more like he again is trying to do the start of nikkyo but ummm poorly as he is in the wrong foot position and his body position is well crap in my estimation what he did would not take anyone to the ground at all as he well just had it all wrong but that is just from my standpoint of how I would do that but there are possibly reasons that Krav does it that way I dunno

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The lock he tried to apply from the first wrist grap was a poor form of nikkyo an the first thing he did was umm strange as really to me that was a kinda maybe ikkyo or in fact gokkyo (due to the wrist turn maybe ) which is as you will know really more to do with the elbow and the body mechanics of applying it

And you are right sir trying to apply it the way he did his ummm thumb going to make it vunerable as you pointed out

He also failed to show as he mentioned a take down ...ok he did what I would call nikkyo but you have to follow that up no matter what you do as it only the first stage


and punching well in real life I would suggest that you might just have to do that to "persuade " the oppenent to actually give you his arm lol or as @gpseymour puts it what he gives you ...I'd put it more like I want it so your gonna give it and I'm gonna make you give me the opening

the comments on you tube lol well I guess the only thing he actually did right was the start of nikkyo and the guy went to his knees that might look good but that certainly is not a take down to me

That lock has some components similar to the techniques you mention, but it's not the same. We have a nearly identical technique (well, it shows up as two different techniques). It has a nikkyo start, but is used as a destruction, not a takedown...usually.

 

[now disabled]

That lock has some components similar to the techniques you mention, but it's not the same. We have a nearly identical technique (well, it shows up as two different techniques). It has a nikkyo start, but is used as a destruction, not a takedown...usually.

The first wrist grab is a way to start nikkyo omote well it is one of the ways

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know whether this video is typical of the Krav approach to joint locks. I haven't been impressed with much of the martial arts instruction I've seen on Howcast.

I'll give the instructor the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's just focusing on the basic mechanics of the lock and not the work that is necessary to compromise the opponent's structure to the point where the lock can be applied. The latter is more important, but it's a short video so maybe he addresses that in another lesson. (Or maybe not. I've seen plenty of classes where that aspect of the technique is taught poorly or not at all.)

With that in mind, I would give his execution a C- and his explanation a D-. At one point in his explanation he actually indicates the wrong direction for the force vector on the elbow, although he seems to do it correctly on the actual demonstration of the second entry.

Side note - it's been quite a few years since this technique was part of my regular training practice. I was pleasantly surprised to realize how much better I understand the physical principles behind the move now than I did then.

 

[now disabled]

I was pleasantly surprised to realize how much better I understand the physical principles behind the move now than I did then.

valid point there as if certain things are not in place the lock will not work and I don't just mean taking his centre etc but the mere fact that in one of the moves in fact nearly all if the arm is straight then it not work ...at least in my opinion

 

[Anarax]

My take on that video: I had no idea I was as good as I am at kenjutsu. That dude's supposedly an "expert", and clearly he is, given how easily he walked around the other two. I'm certain I could do that.

Yeah, I hear ya. I like how his block completely nullified his opponents, no counter-attack necessary.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know whether this video is typical of the Krav approach to joint locks. I haven't been impressed with much of the martial arts instruction I've seen on Howcast.

I'll give the instructor the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's just focusing on the basic mechanics of the lock and not the work that is necessary to compromise the opponent's structure to the point where the lock can be applied. The latter is more important, but it's a short video so maybe he addresses that in another lesson. (Or maybe not. I've seen plenty of classes where that aspect of the technique is taught poorly or not at all.)

With that in mind, I would give his execution a C- and his explanation a D-. At one point in his explanation he actually indicates the wrong direction for the force vector on the elbow, although he seems to do it correctly on the actual demonstration of the second entry.

Side note - it's been quite a few years since this technique was part of my regular training practice. I was pleasantly surprised to realize how much better I understand the physical principles behind the move now than I did then.

It's my experience that most instructors, when teaching this technique (in any curriculum that has it), spend too much time on the mechanics of the lock, and not nearly enough on the structure issues and when to use/not use the technique. My best analogy if if a boxing coach taught a slip, and spent 80% of the time talking about the hand that guards the head, 10% on placement of the leading foot, and 10% of the time talking about the body movement that actually does the slipping. Technically, nothing would be wrong, but very little would be right in that situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

valid point there as if certain things are not in place the lock will not work and I don't just mean taking his centre etc but the mere fact that in one of the moves in fact nearly all if the arm is straight then it not work ...at least in my opinion

If you mean uke's arm, you're mostly right. There's a complementary technique that locks the wrist differently (can actually be a bind on the smallest metacarpal) that works nicely as a simple transition if the arm straightens. I believe this exists in Aikido, as well, though maybe only as the finish to another technique (sankyo, maybe? - I am lousy at Aikido technique names).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, I hear ya. I like how his block completely nullified his opponents, no counter-attack necessary.

Yeah. I never knew that block was so handy. And what the heck happened to the second guy after he stepped (oh-so-slowly) around the first one. Dude die of old age?

 

[now disabled]

If you mean uke's arm, you're mostly right. There's a complementary technique that locks the wrist differently (can actually be a bind on the smallest metacarpal) that works nicely as a simple transition if the arm straightens. I believe this exists in Aikido, as well, though maybe only as the finish to another technique (sankyo, maybe? - I am lousy at Aikido technique names).

not sankyyo wrist is other way lol

but if you mean going for the pressure point then yes but that is getting a wee bit advanced and if ya miss it ya umm well screwed ...me if the arm can't be "persuaded to bend" lol then forget nikkyo and go for hiji waza (hopefully then the arm will bend ok maybe the wrong way lol)