Koryu Karate

[Hyper_Shadow]

Can't disagree too much with that, good point.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I don't know why he calls it "Koryu Karate" though lit. it means old school China hands it can be seen as deceptive. I don't know why he chose that and since he creates his own style Chugoku Kenpo and has visions of resurrecting dead Iga ryuha on airplanes he can call his arts what ever he wants I guess.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

How about, The Way Of The intercepting Sandwich? That's got a nice ring to it..... Maybe we should do poll for this...... check out the funnies.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Thought I would add some more info on the subject:

唐 This Kanji is read as Tang or China. This 唐手 is read as Tang/China Hand. Koryu 古流 meaning old school.

The problem is the Okinawan arts were already using the term Kara te meaning China hand before Funakoshi changed or popularized the term empty hand.

As Mr. Kohler said

Koryu Karate" is the name of a system that Tanemura Sensei has put together from several schools.

If so then it is a Gendai art and not a koryu art because the system is created in the modern times. It is like calling an art Koryu Aikido even though it is based off Daito ryu. It is a sly,deceptive use of terminology IMO used as a marketing ploy.

 

[chinto]

OK Karate was defined in the 1920's or so, as a term for the Okinawan art that before had been known as china hand. it became empty hand at that point. but I have not seen any documented source of the term karate for any martial art before that time. The Japanese have been extremely ethnocentric, in fact down right extremely racist in the past, and to some extent now. The Japanese used the jujitsu arts for what they did, and while they may over time have adopted some of the Chinese techniques they were exposed to, they were slow to do so from what i can see. if it was not japanese and invented there they did not tend to use it. hell the Jujitsu systems they had were effective and worked with their other arts of the sword and such very well.

so my final say is that the claim is B.S.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Here's a question:

If something is merged together in the Gendai(modern) period how can it be still called Koryu?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Here's a question:

If something is merged together in the Gendai(modern) period how can it be still called Koryu?

Because the term is used as a name or description, and not to indicate an art that is acknowledged by the major koryu organizations? Afaik, it IS a valid use of the term koryu.

You really have an axe to grind with Tanemura sensei, no?
You might as well harp on the fact that taekwondo is deceptive marketing because it translates to 'way of the foot and the fist' or something like that, while I have yet to see a taekwondo match in which either fighter uses his fists.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Because the term is used as a name or description, and not to indicate an art that is acknowledged by the major koryu organizations? Afaik, it IS a valid use of the term koryu.

It is kinda of misleading and misrepresenting.

Its like calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu or Koryu Judo because it comes from Kito ryu Jujutsu.

Calling an art that was put together in a gendai area does not make it koryu any more than say Aikido or Judo.

You really have an axe to grind with Tanemura sensei, no?

No. I will question claims,oddities that are put on the web by Mr.Tanemura and the Genbukan for clarity purposes and I encourage others to do the same. But before I make my statements I do check with a native on the use of the terminology if they as well find it odd then I ask the question.

You might as well harp on the fact that taekwondo is deceptive marketing because it translates to 'way of the foot and the fist' or something like that, while I have yet to see a taekwondo match in which either fighter uses his fists.

You are more than welcome to bring this up to the Taekwondo people on the board From my limited understanding they do have strikes with fist. However on your point IF Taekwondo was created in the modern area but called itself ancient Taekwondo then yes I would question it. If the art translated as Fist and Foot way but there is absoultely no use of either foot or fist I would question it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Here's a question:

If something is merged together in the Gendai(modern) period how can it be still called Koryu?

It can't and that really is the end of the story. No amount of debate in this thread will change that simple truth.

koryu does not mean "Old school" in the sense of "the old methods" - it literally means "Old school". To call an art koryu which does not come from one of those schools is misrepresentation. It's that pure and simple.

An example I think I have used before is that it is like taking a couple of old scrap cars, welding them together, hammering them into the shape of an SLK 320 and putting a Mercedes Benz badge on the front. It's not a Mercedes and never can be and if it was built with the intent to make people think it is a Mercedes then it's an infringement of patent and copyright.

 

[Bruno@MT]

koryu does not mean "Old school" in the sense of "the old methods" - it literally means "Old school". To call an art koryu which does not come from one of those schools is misrepresentation. It's that pure and simple.

Difficult. I suppose it comes down to semantics and liguistics. I'll ask my sensei about this when I see him tomorrow. He is a Gebukan member and he knows Japanese and Japanese history.

It's not like I want to argue with people, but I considered they term koryu to be used in the sense of 'old school' as it is used today: to indicate 'like they did way back when', and not 'what they did then'. (I hope I managed to make the distinction clear)

Anyway I'll check with Sensei and see what he says.

 

[Haze]

As a practitioner of Goju I found this little tidbit about what is considered koryu


There are two years that define the way Goju-ryu has been considered by the Japanese establishment: the first, 1933, is the year Gōjū-ryū was officially recognized as a budo in Japan by Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, in other words, it was recognized as a modern martial art, or gendai budo. The second year, 1998, is the year the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai recognized Goju-ryu Karatedo as an ancient form of martial art ( koryu) and as a bujutsu. This recognition as a koryu bujutsu shows a change in how Japanese society sees the relationships between Japan, Okinawa and China. Until 1998, only martial arts practiced in mainland Japan by samurai had been accepted as koryu bujutsu.

Seems like the Japanese have changed the way they see things quite a few years ago.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Here is the Kanji for Koryu. Ko=古 here is the Hiragana for Ko=こ
For Ryu=流 if we translate this Ko=means old Ryu=style/school
Koryu is also used as a dating period:

While there is no "official" cutoff date, the dates most commonly used are either 1868, the first year of the Meiji period, or 1876, when the Haitōrei edict banning the wearing of swords was pronounced.

Gendai on the other hand:

meaning "modern martial way," are modern Japanese martial arts which were established after the Meiji Restoration (1866-1869). Koryū are the opposite: ancient martial arts established before the Meiji Restoration.

So again if You take two arts that are koryu and merge them together in modern times it is not Koryu but gendai thus the term Koryu Karate is incorrect. Also there is no such art called Koryu Karate. The name Koryu Karate is Mr.Tanemura's creation and is not a legit koryu style. As noted:

what he teaches comes from the techniques of Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakenjutsu (striking hand technique) and Tenshin Koryu Kenpo (fist method).

Kukishin or kukishinden ryu is considered Koryu but again it is similar to say Daito ryu Aikijutsu and calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito ryu.

Difficult. I suppose it comes down to semantics and liguistics. I'll ask my sensei about this when I see him tomorrow. He is a Gebukan member and he knows Japanese and Japanese history.

Sukerkin practices a Koryu art, I can speak and read Japanese,My wife is a Japanese native,Memebers on this thread also say it is incorrect.

but I considered they term koryu to be used in the sense of 'old school' as it is used today: to indicate 'like they did way back when', and not 'what they did then'. (

As I said earlier Ko-means old Ryu-means school in a way Koryu and Gendai are used as dating periods to tell the difference between Before Meji and after Meji.

 

[Errant108]

OK Karate was defined in the 1920's or so, as a term for the Okinawan art that before had been known as china hand. it became empty hand at that point. but I have not seen any documented source of the term karate for any martial art before that time.

Are you the be all & end all of knowledge of pre-Meiji era Japanese arts?

Do you read Kanji?

What actual research have you done into this subject?

The Japanese have been extremely ethnocentric, in fact down right extremely racist in the past, and to some extent now.

The Japanese have also gone through periods where they slavishly copied Chinese culture. Further, Japanese culture has always been adept at syncretism, & has never had any compulsion against learning from the Chinese, adapting this new knowledge, and making it their own.

Your statements accusing the Japanese of racism & ethnocentrism, in light of the historical inaccuracy of your critique, could in turn, be considered an exposition of your own ethnocentrism.

The Japanese used the jujitsu arts for what they did, and while they may over time have adopted some of the Chinese techniques they were exposed to, they were slow to do so from what i can see. if it was not japanese and invented there they did not tend to use it. hell the Jujitsu systems they had were effective and worked with their other arts of the sword and such very well.

This is blatantly your opinion & not backed up by historical fact.

so my final say is that the claim is B.S.

Good for you.

It is a historical fact that there are pre-Meiji era Japanese systems known as "Karate". This is written with the Kanji 唐手. Pre-Meiji era, in Japan, these would not be referring to the Okinawan arts, given that in Okinawan, these characters are pronounced Toudi, and pronouncing Karate is a linguistic mondernism thanks to influence of the Japanese on Okinawan speech.

The Genbukan karate systems have every right to be called Karate. Their status as Koryu is a completely different animal.

 

[Sukerkin]

Your statements accusing the Japanese of racism & ethnocentrism, in light of the historical inaccuracy of your critique, could in turn, be considered an exposition of your own ethnocentrism.

Hmm, not a boat that I would chose to sail on, I have to say, from my own study of Japanese history and culture. It has been a very strong trait in the Japanese psyche for a very long time after all.

 

[Errant108]

Hmm, not a boat that I would chose to sail on, I have to say, from my own study of Japanese history and culture. It has been a very strong trait in the Japanese psyche for a very long time after all.

The issue is not whether or not those traits exist within Japanese culture, but rather, dismissing something WITHOUT PROPER RESEARCH, based on accusations of Japanese racism & ethnocentrism. That shows faith in an assumed stereotype, rather than otherwise.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

http://www.mardb.com/karate/whats-in-a-name.html

Great work on the Kanji differences.

Its some what hard press to say that back then they used the word Karate in verbalization of the kanji. Obviously the Kanji can be read as Kara or Tou and in modern Japanese it would most likely be read as Kara. I think a Japanese historian or the likes would be best at answering that. Maybe Karl Friday or someone on Koryu.com can shed some light on it.

Since the Genbukan Karate is put together in modern times I suppose calling it Karate is fine. I suppose also calling it Karate because Takamatsu wanted to call it that is fine. It could lead some people to wonder why not call it Dakenjutsu,or Kenpo or any other Striking name. Even odder is why call it Koryu if it is a modern art.

 

[Sukerkin]

Errant, I don't know if I'm misreading you or not, given the limitations of the format but you seem (to me at least) to be agitated, either by this topic or by Chinto.

Descent into 'bullet point wars' is usually a sign of empassioned disagreement and I've never seen such threads reach a satisfactory conclusion.

I can see I shall have to read through this thread more deeply and see where the roots lie.

 

[Errant108]

Errant, I don't know if I'm misreading you or not, given the limitations of the format but you seem (to me at least) to be agitated, either by this topic or by Chinto.

Descent into 'bullet point wars' is usually a sign of empassioned disagreement and I've never seen such threads reach a satisfactory conclusion.

Hardly.

I use the quote function because it allows me to address key points in someone's arguments. This allows for a clear point to point conversation. There should be no confusion as to what I am addressing, because I've quoted it, and responded to it directly.

I can see I shall have to read through this thread more deeply and see where the roots lie.

Feel free, but it's all there in my previous two posts in this thread.

 

[chinto]

I have not found any reference to Karate before the 20th century. that was a term adopted in the 20th century. it was a change in the pronunciation of Tode, china hand.. that was changed to empty hand in the last century.

as to the Jujitsu systems effectiveness.. do you doubt that they were and are efficient and effective systems of unarmed combat that the samurai used in conjunction with their weapons systems ? or do you think that they used something else as their main unarmed systems of combat? I am not clear on that.


as to the Japanese being very much people who practiced the 'It was not invented here reflex,' and ' it is not our way! and has not been our way!' why do you think that they outlawed fire arms so long ago in japan? or closed off the whole country with a death penalty to any intruders..this was only ended by Admiral Parry's visit and his ships cannon..

why is every one who is not an ethnic Japanese transitionally called barbarian?


if you wish to say that there are arts that strike and are older Japanese arts.. ok.. like I said, Funikoshi who was a student of Master Itosu asked a jujitsu expert after a demo in the 1920's or so if he "was not a student of Okinawan Todi?"

If this is a true story , then surely there can be argued that some of the jujitsu systems used a lot of strikes as well as locks, just as Okinawan martial arts traditional use locks and throws and brakes too.

but if as has been argued Koru refers to pre majji restoration arts... can you show me what art was called Karate and still is from that time to this?

I can document as well as any one the linage and style from Okinawa that I train in. the linage goes back to sakagowa and Iwah and Ason then to Sokon Matsumura and down the linage. so that linage is back into the 18th century AD...( 1700's A. D.)

does that make it Koru? NO, not as far as I can see. the definition of Koru is that of a Samurai practiced traditional Japanese system of martial arts. the broadest definition I have seen for Koru is Traditional Japanese practiced art ( IE practiced on the Japanese home islands, and not the Ryukyu Islands...)so the Okinawan art of Karate is not by definition Koru.