Knowing Martial Arts Doesn't Mean You Will Always Win
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Generally most bouncers/doormen are percieved to have martial arts ability. This is not always the case. I have seen plenty of bouncers who couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag. Not saying that's the case here, but it could be. Hope they are ok though, its sad to see these random acts of violence occur but unfortunately it happens.
In this case the police should have been called immediately and he should not have gave chase. Leaving the property that you are supposed to protect, even if he had beaten the assailants to a pulp he could have gotten into serious legal trouble.
In this case the police should have been called immediately and he should not have gave chase. Leaving the property that you are supposed to protect, even if he had beaten the assailants to a pulp he could have gotten into serious legal trouble.
ATC
Senior Master
I said it many times before, You can study MA all your life but if you don't sparr, compete full contact, or fight often your training is nothing more than exercise. There are tons of Black Belts out there that have never been in any kind of fight that could not defend themselves at all if it came down to it. They can kick and punch air, targets and a bag like superman. They can toss and lock up a partner during drills perfectly everytime, but when the time comes to do it in a dynamic situation when things are dirty and unpredictable they have no clue. Just common sense to me.
I agree with you to a point, there are still limits and rules that have to be followed when you're sparring, full-contact fighting etc... whereas there are no rules in street fighting either you're kicking butt or getting your butt kicked. I would agree that hard contact sparring will teach you how to employ techiques and how to hit and take a hit, but again when it comes to street fighting normally it's not one on one as in the case with the doorman getting assaulted and robbed. The best thing he could've done was stayed there tended to the woman and given the description to the police and let them handle it.
mook jong man
Senior Master
The hours that bouncers work would probably preclude them from doing a lot of martial training , most classes would be on at night when they are working.
During the day they probably sleep and any spare time they probably spend with their families , so the lifestyle would probably not be conducive to a consistant training regime.
Also most of them are hired for their muscularity and intimidation factor so they are probably at the gym a lot pumping iron.
During the day they probably sleep and any spare time they probably spend with their families , so the lifestyle would probably not be conducive to a consistant training regime.
Also most of them are hired for their muscularity and intimidation factor so they are probably at the gym a lot pumping iron.
OP
OP
I think you might be mistaken. One of my sensei was a bouncer. Short, not terribly intimidating, and absolutely terrifying to spar against.
However, my initial point wasn't about the basic badassery of your typical bouncer. Actually more of a cautionary tale about thinking one is invulnerable when once proficiency is achieved. You seem to think that if only this fellow was a better martial artist, he'd have had better success. Did you read the story at all?
Archangel M
Senior Master
Fighting in the sparring, ring, etc and self defense/ "combat" are two very different things. The former absolutely will help you in the latter but its far from a guarantee.
I gotta side with bill here, I was a bouncer and I'm not very big or intimidating but ill beat the brakes off of you if I need to. But a lot of times and in most places they want an intimidating guy to be the bouncers so their presence alone would detract any confrontation. At least that's how they think.
Also we don't know the whole story here, he may have been holding his own with the 2 assailants and something else might have come into play, like a steel pipe or baseball bat.
But still he let emotion take over. Where he should have stayed and tended to the injured woman and called the police like was mentioned earlier he did not.
If your a bouncer leave your loved ones at home because you never know what's going to happen.
Also we don't know the whole story here, he may have been holding his own with the 2 assailants and something else might have come into play, like a steel pipe or baseball bat.
But still he let emotion take over. Where he should have stayed and tended to the injured woman and called the police like was mentioned earlier he did not.
If your a bouncer leave your loved ones at home because you never know what's going to happen.
OP
OP
If you read the story, the guy took off after them, but when he came back all beat up, he stated he had to fight six assailants, not just the original two. Who knows if that is true, but consider that when you take off running after some bad guys, you never know what you'll run into - just as you said - including all the guy's pals, or someone with a gun.
Nomad
Master Black Belt
Agreed. He could have been the reincarnation of Bruce Lee, but 6 on 1 is still very bad odds in a fight. This sounds like a case of anger (at his girlfriend being hit/beaten) overcame his better judgement in chasing down multiple violent assailants.
Yup, I say this all the time myself...just because we train, doesnt mean we have a red "S" on our chest. Of course, the odds were already stacked against the guy, 6/1, but even in that case, given those odds, thats when you really need to give it your all. If it means picking up an improvised weapon and using it, then so be it.
Regarding ATCs post....sure, there are huge differences between fighting in the ring and fighting to save your ***. But...I believe the point he was trying to make, was the contact issue. Personally, I'd rather have someone have my back in a fight, who is used to hard contact, vs. someone who is afraid to make any contact.
Yup, something else that I've said myself, numerous times, during discussion of whether or not you should/should not, physically get involved. Personally, what you said, is my choice.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Obviously the best choice is to let law enforcement handle a situation like that. However, there are factors like adrenal dump or just being emotionally out of control that can seriously hamper performance in a violent situation. Training can help a lot, but NONE of us leap tall buildings or are invulnerable. If the guy did run into a larger group, this would be a hard situation for anyone to have to deal with.
This thread reminds me of a time many years ago when I was a bouncer at a club (I did a lot of that through college and some right after) and another bouncer there was a former pro wrestler. He did fairly well in that field and was a very big and intimidating looking guy. One night he got really ticked off at some drunk and REALLY went after the guy who he outweighed by roughly 100-130 lbs. and was really trying to hurt this smaller guy outside the club. I went out to try to keep him from doing any serious damage, but it turned out that I almost had to intervene in my colleagues behalf. Despite being about 6'4'' and over 300 lbs. and being in title contention among tag teams in the NWA, it became very obvious that he couldn't fight worth a darn. If the smaller drunk had been more sober, I think he would have cleaned his clock. And the drunk was far from a trained fighter. I tried to give the wrestler some tips and offer him some training, but his pride and ego were having none of it. I just knew from then on that other than just his intimidating looks, he would be more of a minus than a plus at my back, especially with his temper.
This thread reminds me of a time many years ago when I was a bouncer at a club (I did a lot of that through college and some right after) and another bouncer there was a former pro wrestler. He did fairly well in that field and was a very big and intimidating looking guy. One night he got really ticked off at some drunk and REALLY went after the guy who he outweighed by roughly 100-130 lbs. and was really trying to hurt this smaller guy outside the club. I went out to try to keep him from doing any serious damage, but it turned out that I almost had to intervene in my colleagues behalf. Despite being about 6'4'' and over 300 lbs. and being in title contention among tag teams in the NWA, it became very obvious that he couldn't fight worth a darn. If the smaller drunk had been more sober, I think he would have cleaned his clock. And the drunk was far from a trained fighter. I tried to give the wrestler some tips and offer him some training, but his pride and ego were having none of it. I just knew from then on that other than just his intimidating looks, he would be more of a minus than a plus at my back, especially with his temper.
chinto
Senior Master
ok, martial arts training will grantee nothing..... But, if you train for self defense, and also work on the mental preparation, this being the mind set and excepting that if you do fight some one will be badly hurt or killed, then you have a much better chance of surviving and winning as much as any one ever really wins a fight.
Look folks, on the street, in the real world... IF YOU FIGHT YOU MAY DIE! That said, if attacked on the street, you have at least as much chance of DIEING!.. you choose.
make the decision as to if its worth the fight, and what level of force needed, then if you decided to fight, you better be worried about surviving yourself, and when that attacker stops, you may... that is your call.
I would say that a quick check with your lawyer, solicitor /Barrister for you Brits, on what the law says on self defense!
But Remember the maxim... BETTER TO BE JUDGED BY TWELVE THEN CARRIED BY SIX... to your grave site.
Look folks, on the street, in the real world... IF YOU FIGHT YOU MAY DIE! That said, if attacked on the street, you have at least as much chance of DIEING!.. you choose.
make the decision as to if its worth the fight, and what level of force needed, then if you decided to fight, you better be worried about surviving yourself, and when that attacker stops, you may... that is your call.
I would say that a quick check with your lawyer, solicitor /Barrister for you Brits, on what the law says on self defense!
But Remember the maxim... BETTER TO BE JUDGED BY TWELVE THEN CARRIED BY SIX... to your grave site.
OP
OP
All true. In this case, though, remember that the victim ran off after the robbers and came back all beat up. That's the part that might be considered when one is considering 'going after' the bad guys after the fact. Just a little "would it be wise for me to do this?" question that one might ask oneself before running off into the darkness after a couple people who had just robbed you and your spouse.
WC_lun
Senior Master
I don't most people who we call martial artist art not really very good at self defense. There are people who train for sport, some people train for physical skills, some train for social reason, and for some even train for the fantacy. Very few people train in real self defense. That is niether good not bad, just the way it is. In real combat, even if you study real self defense you may not be the one to just walk away. In fact people tend to be hurt if it is real combat. People don't attack you if they think its gonna be a "faith" fight.
