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J-kid

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Well i am not gonna kill someone for fighting me or calling me a name. Thats crazy and i frown apon that kind of fighting, No reason to fight to the death.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Judo-kid
Well i am not gonna kill someone for fighting me or calling me a name. Thats crazy and i frown apon that kind of fighting, No reason to fight to the death.



That's all well and good but does the other guy feel the same way?


He might have a knife or a gun........then what are you gonna do?
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
judo-kid, i totally feel you man. its all about defending your name.



Paaalease...........:rolleyes:
 
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RyuShiKan

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First this.

Originally posted by Judo-kid Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.

Then this

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Also i wouldnt have fought him right away ether

Which is it?:confused:
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by sweeper
I disagree jk

The great equaliser in highschool isn't brutality but rather psychology. People don't fear getting beaten up they fear loosing face.. I went through highschool without ever getting in a fight and with out ever being bullied..

I agree.

JK & MTP,

If you are fighting to defend your name what happens if he kicks your *** really good?

Thats kind of like adding insult to injury....or injury to insult in this case.

After he kicks you *** he just has more ammunition to taught you with..
 

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Honor is defined differently in ones youth. Itss all about 'saving face' and not 'looking weak'. To them, most of the wisdom one can find in books like '5 Rings or 'Art of War' is just 'woosing out'.

There is never any worry about what happens if they get their own *** kicked....that wont happen. Or if it doesn, well, then they get their 'posse' together and do a little 5 on 1. To protect their 'honor'.

Of course, an intelegent life form would wonder what honor is it in going 5 on 1 with an unarmed person....but then again, an intelegent life form already knows the answer.

But then again, the 'old folks' will speak of things like 'honor' and 'discipline' and 'respect' and 'loyalty'....while the children who "know it all" will ask if this will take all afternoon...as they have the pajamas....

'Honor' isn't saving face in front of a group of people you won't likely ever see again after high school.... honor goes deeper than that. Honor is what a Marine has...or a Samural...
Honor is standing there while a total scum spits on you...and being above reacting. Or, maybe I confuse honor with maturity....they tend to go together.

MTP's fault lies in he reacted to the situation....and his reaction forced an escalation. If he had responded to it, it would probably not gotten physical. There is a difference between reacting and responding. Its worth learning.

I went thru HS with a large # of comments tossed at me....its really hard for someone to top you when after they call your mother a slut, you mention she now has her own frequent shopper card. :rolleyes: The average school bully is simply too stupid to deal with it.

:asian:
 
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Kenpo Wolf

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Originally posted by Zepp
Sounds like you've been out of high school for quite some time now Kenpo Wolf. :D

This is true, but I dealt with bullies all my life. This comes from being born with a speach impediment, in which a lot of people thought I was retarded or something, which I still have to this day. The only difference between the bullies in my day and the modern bullies in school is that they carry knives and guns now. People need to learn that violence should be used as a last alternative.
 

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Originally posted by Judo-kid
Also i wouldnt have fought him right away ether, I proble would have done closer to the same thing, There is always a chance i might. I never get into any fights unless someone wants to fight me for god knows what reason.

Nobody ever gets into fights unless someone wants to fight... It goes without saying. The difference is that a fight takes at least two people, and if at least one of the parties decides they aren't going to allow the onther person to dictate their actions, then no fight will result...

Also i only fight people when they lay there hands on me. But i would exchang words if someone is really making me that mad.

While to a certain degree that is sensible (the not fighting until they lay their hands on you part), exchanging words due to losing your temper shows that the other person is in control and you do not. Personally, I prefer to disallow the other person taking my power away. Words do little. Actions speak much louder than words ever can.

Its about Respect,

You are correct. It is about respect. But which is more important? That some putz respects you because you react to his poking and prodding with insults and untruths? Who really cares if some immature twit who gets his kicks out of trying to instigate violence thinks you are cool or not. Earn the respect of people who are worthy of your respect. Do you respect that clown? If you do, you have some serious thinking to do about what merits respect and what doesn't...

If i respect people , People should Respect me.

Your premise is flawed. If you respect people, goodie for you. They do not, however, have to respect you, no matter what. Even if you do everything right, there is absolutely nothing that says anyone has to respect anyone... The only thing that implies that are the rules of courtesy, something you have said previously that you don't have much stock in... Maybe I misunderstood your comments elsewhere. I hope so...

[]BNot to mention martial arts helps alot in sistations like that where Talking fails.[/B]

Well, that is what martial arts was meant for - defense of self in the face of oppression.

You knocked him out for the right reasons, He deserves what he got if your storey is 100% correct./

I disagree entirely. Other options could have been exercised. Like I posted before, a great warrior has victory in a thousand battles. The greatest warrior is the one who has victory in his battle with himself (i.e. in exercising control over his actions, emotions, etc.).

Kenpo wolf you have no honor,

So, what do you mean by honor? Here are Merriam-Webster's applicable definitions:

1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION
b : a showing of usually merited respect : RECOGNITION <pay honor to our founder>

4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT <an honor to the profession>

7 : CHASTITY, PURITY <fought fiercely for her honor and her life -- Barton Black>

8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY
b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance

9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <did the honors at the table>

synonyms HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown to another. HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great respect or to any expression of such recognition <the nomination is an honor>. HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise <paying homage to Shakespeare>. REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe <great reverence for my father>. DEFERENCE implies a yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or reverence <showed no deference to their elders>.

I think, Judo-kid, your concept of honor is only half understood. You mistake honor for "street cred," or some other poorly understood concept, alongside a person's inalienable "right" to respect, whether earned or not.

If you mean honor in accordance with definition 1, then your good name and reputation will have little to do with falling victim to someone's baiting remarks and insults. In fact, your good name and reputation will be emboldened for walking away...

If you mean honor in accordance with definition 4, then you would become infamous, not famous, for allowing someone to taunt you and manipulate you so easily into fighting with only a few choice insults.

If you mean honor in accordance with definitions 7, 8 and 9, then fighting will do nothing whatsoever to better any of those conditions...

I dont let people walk on me cause its a doggy dog world.

The phrase is not 'doggy dog," but rather "dog eat dog." It refers to a vicious, destructive environment wherein all individuals are out for their own survival. Nice try, though...

As far as "letting people walk on you," you need to learn which battles to fight and which ones to let go... If you fight every fight that presents itself, you only prove without a doubt that you are capable of fighting. If you only fight the fights that are worth fighting, you prove without a doubt you are capable of much more...

Once you show weakness every Joe Dick And Harry wants to show there better then you.

You're right. And once you show you can be danced around like a puppet on strings just by pissing you off, then every Tom, Dick and Harry will want to humiliate you in the same way...

First off if a guy was pushing you and causing this kind of problem, He is wanting to fight you, These are fighting words.

No reason to give in, though.

If you dont fight him he will bully you. I guess you must not have gone to High school or somthing because you would know i am right.

Surprisingly, I managed to get through high school with only one fight, and that one was caused more by my big mouth than anything else. I was lucky to get away from the whole thing without getting the a$$ beating of my life (2 vs. 10 - good odds for me now, bad odds back then... :D ). I got out of fights not by being meek and mild, but by being able to talk circles around the dimwitted neaderthals that thought they could make me dance by flexing and trying to intimidate me... Didn't happen. Not once.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Honor is defined differently in ones youth. Itss all about 'saving face' and not 'looking weak'. To them, most of the wisdom one can find in books like '5 Rings or 'Art of War' is just 'woosing out'.

Amen.

There is never any worry about what happens if they get their own *** kicked....that wont happen. Or if it doesn, well, then they get their 'posse' together and do a little 5 on 1. To protect their 'honor'.

Remind me some day to tell you the story about how one kid managed to piss off 10 other kids who decided some 10 on 1 action would be cool... Lucky me, my ***** talking buddy came along with me (and did little to make things better, I might add...)

But then again, the 'old folks' will speak of things like 'honor' and 'discipline' and 'respect' and 'loyalty'....while the children who "know it all" will ask if this will take all afternoon...as they have the pajamas....

Amen a second time...

'Honor' isn't saving face in front of a group of people you won't likely ever see again after high school.... honor goes deeper than that. Honor is what a Marine has...or a Samural...
Honor is standing there while a total scum spits on you...and being above reacting. Or, maybe I confuse honor with maturity....they tend to go together.

Honor is knowing just how many times you could kill the guy before his lifeless body hit the ground... And choosing not to because you are powerful enough to make that decision... Only animals fail to think about the consequences of their actions.

MTP's fault lies in he reacted to the situation....and his reaction forced an escalation. If he had responded to it, it would probably not gotten physical. There is a difference between reacting and responding. Its worth learning.

Amen a third time... Preach on brother!!! :D:D:D

its really hard for someone to top you when after they call your mother a slut, you mention she now has her own frequent shopper card. :rolleyes: The average school bully is simply too stupid to deal with it.

That was my point earlier... Baffle the idiots with BS, and while they are standing there trying to figure out what you were talking about, walk away laughing...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
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Kenpo Wolf

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Originally posted by Judo-kid
Kenpo wolf you have no honor,

First off if a guy was pushing you and causing this kind of problem, He is wanting to fight you, These are fighting words.
If you dont fight him he will bully you. I guess you must not have gone to High school or somthing because you would know i am right.

To reply to your first comment, since when is fighting about honor? You watch way too many movies, dude. You don't know me so don't judge me

And to your second comment, I was not dissing MTP for taking care of the bully when he was forced to. I just took offence when you said;

Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.


Talk does solve things, most of the time, and violence should be one's last alternative. If everyone felt this way, the world would be a lot nicer to live in. You have stated your opinion and although I respect you for that, you are not right. I will not have a flame war with you and any attempts on your part to have one with me will be ignored. Peace dude:)
 
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J-kid

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To Yiliquan and kenpo wolf

Your views may be valid, Yet i must post that honor comes in many forms and comes from with in your self.

I believe you must honor your family and true heros.

When someone challengs your honor and your faced with no other opions it becomes your duty as a warrior to defend your honor.

I believe everyone deserves respect to some point.

What people do can sometimes be very disrespectful and some times you must deal with these problems. Some times talking it over can solve the problem, But when Talking fails and they force your hand to action you must teach them respect.

I dont believe in that 10 vs 1 crap and people who do that arnt thinking like warriors but more as a collective Group. It is a cowardly move.

I know this is jumping off topic but the way i look at it there are 2 kinds of people in the Universe. The to groups both have the same goal but diffrent ways, One way is by chaos will force technoligy advances and advance the world. The other beleives that peace and order can bring advance. They both have good points and its hard to say whos right in the end since you can go threw out history and pull aguments out for both sides.


Also like to Note i have the book, Art of war
 
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rmcrobertson

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I agree with kenpo wolf: there is nothing honorable about fighting, unless there is no other alternative whatsoever. And unless you're p[rotecting something worth protecting.

I'd like to add that kenpo isn't even about fighting. It's about self-defense, maybe even survival--very different propositions. That's why a good martial artist never pulls the trigger until they have to--because once you do, it's pretty likely someone's gonna get hurt.

I'd also like to think that if I ever do have to go there, I'll at least have the decency to be miserable about having hurt somebody else.

Honor? taking care of your kids is honorable. Working hard at a worthwhile job is honorable. Reading a good book is honorable. Writing great music is honorable...Struggling to perfect your character is honorable. Training hard is honorable. Walking away from a fight is usually honorable.

Fighting...nah. Usually, not.
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by Judo-kid
To Yiliquan and kenpo wolf

Your views may be valid, Yet i must post that honor comes in many forms and comes from with in your self.

That's true. There are many forms of honor (10, in fact, from the dictionary). However, loss of self control and violent action are rarely considered honorable...

I believe you must honor your family and true heros.

The use of the word "honor" in this context means "to respect." You are correct that you should pay respect to those deserving of it, people who are therefore (by the definition of the word "honor," as defined in paragraph 4 of the dictionary definintion I posted earlier) honorable.

When someone challengs your honor and your faced with no other opions it becomes your duty as a warrior to defend your honor.

While I am not intending this comment to be a slight on your age, your opinion shows you are young and brash. Something I suspect most of us on this board were once upon a time. But "honor" is a hollow thing to fight and risk dying for. "Honor" does not keep you warm at night, will not feed you when hungry, will provide no solace when you are lonesome or injured. "Honor" is the reward for a shallow person. It is an important concept, but to be the focal point of a person's life shows that their understanding of life priorities lacks depth.

I remember a Sergeant Major I knew once upon a time who told me "You cannot impress me. I have seen too much, from too many people, that was outstanding in its expression. Do not try to impress, simply be impressive." Likewise, do not try to "earn" honor, or to "defend" honor. The honorable man will earn respect by being honorable. Honor cannot be "defended," since real honor cannot be attacked or slighted. As someone else said in this thread, it is "face" that is being defended, and that is very different from "honor."

I believe everyone deserves respect to some point.

And this is the first step upon living an honorable life... Be respectful even to those who do not seem to deserve it. As the sayings go: "The first lesson taught and last lesson understood in the practice of martial arts is the bow." and "Only a truly strong and powerful person can be truly courteous."

What people do can sometimes be very disrespectful and some times you must deal with these problems. Some times talking it over can solve the problem, But when Talking fails and they force your hand to action you must teach them respect.

Respect cannot be "taught." Parents that say they will "teach their child respect" by repeated threats of physical violence do not "teach respect," but rather instill fear. Fear and respect are very differtent things... Respect can only be earned, and if earning the respect of a thug or ruffian is important to you, then engaging in senseless acts of violence will be your lot for quite some time...

I dont believe in that 10 vs 1 crap and people who do that arnt thinking like warriors but more as a collective Group. It is a cowardly move.

I don't disagree. However, my point was that I managed to get out of such a situation not by resorting to fisticuffs, but by using my brain to outwit the mob... Much harder to convince a group than it is to convince an individual.

I know this is jumping off topic but the way i look at it there are 2 kinds of people in the Universe. The to groups both have the same goal but diffrent ways, One way is by chaos will force technoligy advances and advance the world. The other beleives that peace and order can bring advance. They both have good points and its hard to say whos right in the end since you can go threw out history and pull aguments out for both sides.

I would love to see the examples that you cite to support your arguement.

Also like to Note i have the book, Art of war

Try also reading the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, the Analects of Confucius (not an edited, fortune cookie saying version, but one that puts his comments in context - Confucius actually had quite a sarcastic sense of humor, and his discussions are quite entertaining to read), the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi (which, interestingly enough for a samurai, speaks little of honor, but only of strategy), Kodo: Ancient Ways by Kensho Furuya, the Way of the Samurai (Budoshoshinshu), and The Way of Bushido by Nitobe. These books will help you understand that that Hollywood and Hong Kong version of "honor" that many people mistake for a martial virtue is far from what "honor" meant to people in the real world...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

Johnathan Napalm

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Good Lord! It was some silly school yard brawl! Some loud mouth kid mouthing off rubbish! And you people made it into some sort of Honor and Dignity drama? Don't you people have anything more meaningful happening in your lives?
 

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It became a discussion that the reason for the fight was to defend honor....

and..in answer to the last part....no. :) Being on MartialTalk is more fun than working at the day job. :D
 
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lvwhitebir

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From Marc "Animal" MacYoung's web site (emphasis is mine).
www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/streetfighting.html


Many otherwise intelligent young martial artists aspire to learn how to streetfight.

Why would you want to engage in stupid, obnoxious, dangerous and -- most often -- illegal behavior?

While trends in advertising put great emphasis on unbeatable streetfighting training, it is, at best, an unrealistic fantasy and, at worst, a flat-out lie that can and will get you killed. If you do survive, you will find yourself in all kinds of legal and social trouble. In short, streetfighting is NOT what it is cracked up to be.

I earned the name "Animal" in the streets of Los Angeles back in the 70s and 80s. I ran the streets and the night during the most violent period in American history. And I was working high risk professions such as bodyguarding, bouncing and correctional institutions well into the late 90's - even after I had begun writing about streetfighting and survival.

Having spent time in "the Life," I have strong feelings about the wisdom in the saying "Don't go there." There's a lot of pain and stupidity out there in the "Life." A lot of people think there is a lot of power and pride in being a streetfighter, I can tell you from personal experience that the grief and pain far outweighs any benefits.

And to tell you the truth, in order to find yourself in a "streetfight" you have to be somewhat of an *******. You may want to believe otherwise, but there is a simple raw truth....there ain't no such thing as "a good guy" in a streetfight.

Brutal reality vs. macho myth
Start by accepting the fact, that at least 50 percent of the people who engage in fighting lose. The savage truth is that you are not going to be fighting someone who will fold in shock and pain from your super-secret-dim-mak strike. What's more, the odds are you will fight someone with something up his sleeve that will cause you serious damage if he uses it.

Do I have what it takes?
While there is always the concern: Do I have what it takes? That is absolutely the last question where you want to find out that the answer is no.

...

Legal realities
Contrary to what many ultra-studly martial artists tell you, a fight doesn't end when the body hits the floor. That isn't true with self-defense, and it definitely isn't true if you were involved in starting the fight in the first place (and punching someone because they called you a name or simply put their hand on you *is* starting the fight!). You will be facing police, legal repercussions and probably jail.

Being tough = having leprosy
Contrary to what many young and inexperienced people might think -- being "tough" doesn't solve your self-confidence problems, make you feel better about yourself, impress people, make you more popular, prevent you from being picked on or get you laid more often. In fact, it tends to do just the opposite. Instead of lessening your problems, it makes them worse. It makes you more of a social outcast. And on top of that, you also have people trying to kill you.


Realities of streetfighting
It isn't glamorous. It isn't fun. And if you put yourself into situations where you are having to face real streetfighters, it means you are being an ******* yourself. That's right -- to be a streetfighter, you have to become the very thing you hate.

...

What does it mean to be tough?
The idea that the martial arts can make you tough is erroneous. Being tough isn't about fighting. It is about being able to handle whatever life throws at you and keep on going.



WhiteBirch
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Good Lord! It was some silly school yard brawl! Some loud mouth kid mouthing off rubbish! And you people made it into some sort of Honor and Dignity drama? Don't you people have anything more meaningful happening in your lives?

Perhaps not... Perhaps we are just trying to educate what seem to be intelligent, though misinformed, young martial artists who may well some day end up being the leaders of the martial community...

Do you have anything better to do than make inflammatory comments (Napalm seems a suitable moniker for you) on this thread and others? I welcome any constructive comments you may have, but coming into a discussion (this one and others) to allege that the rest of us have nothing better to do in our lives seems far less than helpful to anyone...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

Johnathan Napalm

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What are you, nuts? That is a high school, for crying out loud. Not kumite. We live in a law abiding society. When high schoolers fight, they get disciplined. The incident should be reported and the school officials should deal with it. What is all this thing about honor and name stuff? It is insane! The kid broke school regulations and the matter is to be handled as such. You people are making a drama out of it. Have we forgotten that there are standard procedures to deal with such daily incidents?
 

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