kenpo

[pete]

doc, great response! your so called "ramblings" are more succinct than many others' well written articles... lots of information for me to put into practice.

with regard to a technique like “Circling Wing” as an example, from my understanding when you turn toward your attacker, the big circle is required to circle over the top of the seizing hand and drop down to a “Pin” between the biceps and ribcage. If you shorten this circle, you will move his hand away and lose the “trap” necessary for the next move. Therefore, this big circle is a necessary construct of the anatomical dynamics of the technique.

so true, i wasn't even considering this first "circle" in my example... but now that you have, it's got me thinking! is this big circle made of several smaller ones? the internal circle in your center to turn you around to face the attacker, causing outward sprirals through hips and shoulders, elbows and knees, ankles and wrists to allow that big circle to "work" in such a way that you remain well centered and structurally sound...

for example, as the "trap" is set, the left hand come into the attackers eyes. if your two hands continued turning in circles (right clockwise and left counterclock), such that the 2 palms are always facing eachother, would you have stronger structure? now to continue in "circling wing", after a rising elbow to the jaw, we rotate back into a reverse stance and hammer the groin, and again the hands are rotating, but now in the opposite directions (right counterclock and left clockwise).

should these smaller circles be found in all/most big circles, and do they in fact help maintain a stronger physical structure?

Modern or contemporary Kenpo skips the basic “training” phase of the body and moves to applications immediately without the proper external foundation to create internal efficiency.

in my limited experience, it seems that serious students tend to realize this along their way in kenpo and find different ways of addressing it. those that haven't tend to struggle more with "new" material and in improving their overall technique.

you are doing a great service to the kenpo community by pointing this out for students such as myself.

thank you...
pete.

 

[Doc]

Doc, great response! Your so-called "ramblings" are more succinct than many others' well written articles... lots of information for me to put into practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
With regard to a technique like “Circling Wing” as an example, from my understanding when you turn toward your attacker, the big circle is required to circle over the top of the seizing hand and drop down to a “Pin” between the biceps and ribcage. If you shorten this circle, you will move his hand away and lose the “trap” necessary for the next move. Therefore, this big circle is a necessary construct of the anatomical dynamics of the technique.

So true, I wasn't even considering this first "circle" in my example... but now that you have, it's got me thinking!

… is this big circle made of several smaller ones?

Yes sir it is. The nature of human anatomy does not actually allow significant movement of an appendage without multiple articulations. There is also a tendency to forget that even the hand has multiple points of articulation with at least three joints on each finger. Even more significant is the fingers and wrist have a significant impact on the entire body’s state of structural integrity and state of nerve cavities over the ENTIRE BODY.

The internal circle in your center to turn you around to face the attacker, causing outward spirals through hips and shoulders, elbows and knees, ankles and wrists to allow that big circle to "work" in such a way that you remain well centered and structurally sound...

Although I would express it differently, you are essentially correct in my opinion.

for example, as the "trap" is set, the left hand come into the attackers eyes.

I do not teach attacking the eyes.

if your two hands continued turning in circles (right clockwise and left counterclock), such that the 2 palms are always facing eachother, would you have stronger structure?

Actually, no you would not. The right hand executes a spiraling articulation at the wrist as it moves up, over, around, and down. It moves first in one direction, than the other. The movement and direction are dictated by the position of the hand relative to the position of the arm to the position of the body. As an example, assuming you have done other mechanisms not discussed here correctly, when your elbow drops below your shoulder joint, your baby finger edge must face toward your attacker. If you do not, your entire body will be misaligned and you will be incapable of maintaining a structurally sound stance, nor will your “ pin” have maximum effect. The position of the left hand is another story.

… now to continue in "circling wing", after a rising elbow to the jaw, we rotate back into a reverse stance and hammer the groin, …

I do not teach it that way, nor do we strike the groin.

and again the hands are rotating, but now in the opposite directions (right counterclock and left clockwise).

If I were to do it this way (and I definitely do not), I would suggest that the right hand does not rotate at all. If the upward elbow is thrown correctly with the palm of the hand facing your head, than the shift into a correct reverse bow rotates the hip, shoulders, and therefore the arm so that the arm literally reverses it self in any strike downward and ultimately now backwards.

should these smaller circles be found in all/most big circles, and do they in fact help maintain a stronger physical structure?

Yes, think about it. From your shoulder to the tip of your middle finger, you have six articulate joints. Move one finger incorrectly relative to the action, and, you completely destroy your platform stability. Structural Integrity is a fleeting thing due to the body’s ability to move in and out of connectivity in all of its many connecting points and tissue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Modern or contemporary Kenpo skips the basic “training” phase of the body and moves to applications immediately without the proper external foundation to create internal efficiency.

In my limited experience, it seems that serious students tend to realize this along their way in Kenpo and find different ways of addressing it.

Unfortunately sir, this information is not “discoverable” on a large scale. You must be taught by a very knowledgeable source. Consider among my students, I have several Medical Doctors, a plethora of Chiropractors, two physical therapists, two grad students in Kinesiology, and one licensed acupuncturist. (and a partrich in a pear tree ) None of them despite their education and training can figure out "how" it works. It is elusive knowledge that crosses the boundaries of multiple sciences. You can't find it in any book or video. You must be taught by someone who knows and understands. It is rare.

those that haven't tend to struggle more with "new" material and in improving their overall technique.

That is because most have no significant foundational material of proper basics to build on, no matter what they do later. The information is not generally available.

To illustrate my point:

Execute an upward elbow with your palm facing your shoulder. Have someone pull down on your elbow. It will collapse easily and will not “feel good.” Execute same, same way, as you stand in your neutral bow. Have someone push you on the 12/6 line while your arm is in that position. Once again, you will be unable to resist due to a complete lack of Structural Integrity.

Now execute with your hand palm flat against the side of your head. No matter how strong the person is they will be unable to pull your arm down. Some might see this as the hand “bracing” against the head, but it is much more subtle than that.

Continuing:

Execute the elbow “correctly” with the palm facing the side of the head but DO NOT TOUCH YOUR HEAD. You will find the Structural Integrity you had before is now significantly diminished. Now extend your middle finger, and simply “touch” your head LIGHTLY. You will find the Structural Integrity has now returned.

“There is no single part of your body, no matter how small, that you can move that does not have a profound impact on your entire body.” – Ron Chapél

you are doing a great service to the Kenpo community by pointing this out for students such as myself.

Well sir, that depends on who you talk to. I could name a few who would definitely disagree with you.

A couple of things. Anyone who performs the experiments I would like them to post their experiences for others to discuss and query. and--

While I have the opportunity, there was another post by Dr. Dave, (I don't know where it is at the moment) where he repeated something I had said about "most being unable to pass my yellow belt test." After visiting me and experiencing some of the curriculum, he agreed with my statement. I give him credit for at least coming to see me before casting judgement. He himself is VERY well educated and knowledgeable as his title suggests.

However the point of my the statement, and his repeat of same, was not expressing an "I'm better than you." sentiment. The point was, someone could actually be doing Ed Parker's Kenpo, with a significant difference in the depth of understanding of the same information, that would be such that not having been taught that way, a person would be unable to execute with the same the in-depth mechanisms inherent in the curriculum. There is much for all of us to learn. Better or worse is an individual decision relative to what you favor. It is not meant by me or Dr. Crouch (who is not my student by the way - yet) in a negative way.

Thanks Mr. Landini

 

[Bigsarg]

Couldn't agree more. I spent years trying to make my circles tighter and closer to my body...and started to resemble an alligator. I have noticed in many live drills the requirement to "go big" on my circles on occassion to make sure uke is where I what him to be (or me not to be where he wants me...). Now, I just need someone to tell where to stop!

Regards - Glenn.

What do u mean by resemble an alligator?

I am a second degree black under Michael Rainy (1993) I hold belts in Tiekedo,judo and Taekwondo.
Try doing the techniques and keep your circles inside your outer rim. I realized that changing the direction in ur circles sometimes can also help. Remember that as long as you keep the sequence,target and weapons correct. The technique is correct. U can fill dead space and change stances if u want. These things do not change the technique. This practice ( keeping circles within outer rim) keeps the unending flow of motion for both offense and defense towards an opponent. Remember also:
you can not always find a way to do this, or can you? Practice will be your answer

 

[Blindside]

What do u mean by resemble an alligator?

I am a second degree black under Michael Rainy (1993) I hold belts in Tiekedo,judo and Taekwondo.
Try doing the techniques and keep your circles inside your outer rim. I realized that changing the direction in ur circles sometimes can also help. Remember that as long as you keep the sequence,target and weapons correct. The technique is correct. U can fill dead space and change stances if u want. These things do not change the technique. This practice ( keeping circles within outer rim) keeps the unending flow of motion for both offense and defense towards an opponent. Remember also:
you can not always find a way to do this, or can you? Practice will be your answer

This is a 13 year old post you are replying to, you probably aren't going to get a response. And besides that dude is probably another Kenpo 10th degree and knows everything about kenpo now.

 

[Bigsarg]

This is a 13 year old post you are replying to, you probably aren't going to get a response. And besides that dude is probably another Kenpo 10th degree and knows everything about kenpo now.

Ya. Didn't look at the date. Just found this website and did a search. 13 yrs. wow how time flys. Where was I 13 yrs ago. Took me a minute to remember. Thanks for pointing the date out

 

[Flying Crane]

Still, I personally think thread necromancy is fine. Just realize that the people who were originally engaging may not be here anymore so responding to specifics might not get any direct response.

But that does not mean the discussion cannot be picked up again.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that

The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing

I learn all this from my Sifu GM Jesus Flores of Flores Bros Kenpo karate

Like kung FU they have their on way of doing Martial

 

[Touch Of Death]

Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that

The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing

I learn all this from my Sifu GM Jesus Flores of Flores Bros Kenpo karate

Like kung FU they have their on way of doing Martial

Splash Hands is older than dirt, dude.

 

[Blindside]

Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that

The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing

Lots of systems do checks and the "slapping motions", it certainly isn't just AK.

 

[Bigsarg]

Lots of systems do checks and the "slapping motions", it certainly isn't just AK.

The slapping motion is called rebounding checks. It let's ur body ricochet the hand to the place you want it. This is micro seconds slower than stopping your hand at the same place. However, for the next move you must relax to strike again. So the micro is more than made up in the speed of the next move. It also keeps motion fluid in your outer rim which is also a check in itself.
When I went to Korea I trained with a master in taekwondo. One of the first things he asked me when I introduced myself and told him my pedigree. "Ahh. American kenpo, why you beat yourself up?" This was said with the harshest of accents too. I never could get him to grasp the concept. His style was pure traditional. Hard and strong on every move. Speed was not a motivator. Only classical traditional form was excepted. It was a great learning experience.
he also said. "And kenpo masters, why they beat themselves up even mooore?" I was funny as an American to hear him chastise something he didn't understand. But it's was true. The longer u train the more u utilize this technique. I didn't realize that until he made that observation. Even a negative statement can bring one enlightenment.

 

[MA_Student]

Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that

The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing

I learn all this from my Sifu GM Jesus Flores of Flores Bros Kenpo karate

Like kung FU they have their on way of doing Martial

Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.

If the attacks are actually that unlikely now, they probably weren't very common back then. There are some new attacks becoming more common, but the old staples of a few decades ago (grab-n-punch, tackle, shove, low punch, straight punch, round punch, headlock) aren't gone.

 

[MA_Student]

If the attacks are actually that unlikely now, they probably weren't very common back then. There are some new attacks becoming more common, but the old staples of a few decades ago (grab-n-punch, tackle, shove, low punch, straight punch, round punch, headlock) aren't gone.

Those type of attack are common but it's less likely someone's going to throw the big telegrphed John Wayne hook at someone now because martial arts are so widespread most people will have had even a tiny bit of basic training either as a kid or just doing 1 class. Also with things like mma people are exposed more to fighting now then back then. E.g it's less likely someone's going to do a lapel grab and pull you Into a punch which is a common thing in kenpo or grab your wrist or your shoulder. I'm not saying all attacks are outdated but there's a number that are. If ed Parker hadn't died when he had the style would be completely different now I guarantee it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Those type of attack are common but it's less likely someone's going to throw the big telegrphed John Wayne hook at someone now because martial arts are so widespread most people will have had even a tiny bit of basic training either as a kid or just doing 1 class. Also with things like mma people are exposed more to fighting now then back then. E.g it's less likely someone's going to do a lapel grab and pull you Into a punch which is a common thing in kenpo or grab your wrist or your shoulder. I'm not saying all attacks are outdated but there's a number that are. If ed Parker hadn't died when he had the style would be completely different now I guarantee it

I don't think those were ever as common as we thought, nor are martial arts skills so common as they seem. Looking at videos of attacks and fights in the street, there are still a lot of round punches, but not so looping nor so obvious as those you so rightly call the John Wayne hook. People still grab and punch reasonably often (compared to the full range of attacks). The punches have straightened a bit, but that doesn't change the mechanics that much. Weight transfer has a bigger effect on most techniques, and angry people still tend to put their weight forward.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Those type of attack are common but it's less likely someone's going to throw the big telegrphed John Wayne hook at someone now because martial arts are so widespread most people will have had even a tiny bit of basic training either as a kid or just doing 1 class. Also with things like mma people are exposed more to fighting now then back then. E.g it's less likely someone's going to do a lapel grab and pull you Into a punch which is a common thing in kenpo or grab your wrist or your shoulder. I'm not saying all attacks are outdated but there's a number that are. If ed Parker hadn't died when he had the style would be completely different now I guarantee it

I forgot the last part of my reply. You are probably right in your last sentence. The approach to MA is a bit different now. Knowledge has progressed and is more readily shared, so there's more fodder for folks who want to get better and improve their art (as he apparently was).

 

[Bigsarg]

Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.

I think the reason for teaching the techniques is lost in this conversation.

The techniques teach you attacks, yes. But, they teach you motion and how to gain force with close range strikes. The motion and the comfort (being close to your attacker) is what is important. Then when you achieve spontaneous motion and your reaction is without cognitive thinking, you have achieved True Kenpo.

It's like driving a car, when you go home everyday, you do not even think to take this turn or that turn, to turn the blinker on and so on. Why? Muscle memory and noncognitive action.

You go somewhere new. You pay more attention, slow when you get close to the address. But, you do you think, oh there it is. I must take my foot off the gas and move it to the brake and turn the blinker on. No! Even in those situation some actions are just muscle memory. Some actions are truely thought out to arrive at this new destination but most are noncognitive actions.

This is the reason for all the different types of attacks. It just simply gives you every foreseeable type of reaction that Mr Parker could come up with to teach to the masses how to achieve True Kenpo.

As a combat vet that served 26 years in the Army. I have used Kenpo in close range hand to hand. And, no the man did not come up and attack me by shaking my hand. But I did break a man's wrist with the wrist snap from gift of destruction. How his hand ended up in mine is just a mystery to me to this day. But the motion was there and when I realized what had happened the man had a compound fracture to his wrist and was very easy to control from that moment.

Kind of like when you park in a parking lot. Did you really think thru all the actions that got the car there. No, you thought there's one and next thing you know your turning the car off.

So,no these attacks are not realistic, nor are they even a technique that you will systematically follow thru each step of the technique until completed. But, the motion your body learns and the ability to feel comfortable right up on an opponent. These are the things you are learning.

Don't get caught up trying to figure out how many spokes the wheel has. Look ahead where the wheel is rolling.

True Kenpo is achievable if you train the techniques and apply the principles, theories, and concepts of force

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think the reason for teaching the techniques is lost in this conversation.

The techniques teach you attacks, yes. But, they teach you motion and how to gain force with close range strikes. The motion and the comfort (being close to your attacker) is what is important. Then when you achieve spontaneous motion and your reaction is without cognitive thinking, you have achieved True Kenpo.

It's like driving a car, when you go home everyday, you do not even think to take this turn or that turn, to turn the blinker on and so on. Why? Muscle memory and noncognitive action.

You go somewhere new. You pay more attention, slow when you get close to the address. But, you do you think, oh there it is. I must take my foot off the gas and move it to the brake and turn the blinker on. No! Even in those situation some actions are just muscle memory. Some actions are truely thought out to arrive at this new destination but most are noncognitive actions.

This is the reason for all the different types of attacks. It just simply gives you every foreseeable type of reaction that Mr Parker could come up with to teach to the masses how to achieve True Kenpo.

As a combat vet that served 26 years in the Army. I have used Kenpo in close range hand to hand. And, no the man did not come up and attack me by shaking my hand. But I did break a man's wrist with the wrist snap from gift of destruction. How his hand ended up in mine is just a mystery to me to this day. But the motion was there and when I realized what had happened the man had a compound fracture to his wrist and was very easy to control from that moment.

Kind of like when you park in a parking lot. Did you really think thru all the actions that got the car there. No, you thought there's one and next thing you know your turning the car off.

So,no these attacks are not realistic, nor are they even a technique that you will systematically follow thru each step of the technique until completed. But, the motion your body learns and the ability to feel comfortable right up on an opponent. These are the things you are learning.

Don't get caught up trying to figure out how many spokes the wheel has. Look ahead where the wheel is rolling.

True Kenpo is achievable if you train the techniques and apply the principles, theories, and concepts of force

Well, there is positioning yourself for spontaneous Lizard Brain responses, and knowing how to move, but I think you miss the boat on techniques. They at all stories. A knife is different than free hand; so, the technique won't look the same; because, it is a different story. Etc,

 

[Bigsarg]

Well, there is positioning yourself for spontaneous Lizard Brain responses, and knowing how to move, but I think you miss the boat on techniques. They at all stories. A knife is different than free hand; so, the technique won't look the same; because, it is a different story. Etc,

I don't want to sound ignorant. But you completely lost me in what you are trying to explain. Could you elaborate on your meaning. Thxs in advance

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't want to sound ignorant. But you completely lost me in what you are trying to explain. Could you elaborate on your meaning. Thxs in advance

I am saying that the techniques are not pieces of a motion puzzle, there a logical reasons for why there aren't just a handful.

 

[hoshin1600]

I think the reason for teaching the techniques is lost in this conversation.

The techniques teach you attacks, yes. But, they teach you motion and how to gain force with close range strikes. The motion and the comfort (being close to your attacker) is what is important. Then when you achieve spontaneous motion and your reaction is without cognitive thinking, you have achieved True Kenpo.

It's like driving a car, when you go home everyday, you do not even think to take this turn or that turn, to turn the blinker on and so on. Why? Muscle memory and noncognitive action.

You go somewhere new. You pay more attention, slow when you get close to the address. But, you do you think, oh there it is. I must take my foot off the gas and move it to the brake and turn the blinker on. No! Even in those situation some actions are just muscle memory. Some actions are truely thought out to arrive at this new destination but most are noncognitive actions.

This is the reason for all the different types of attacks. It just simply gives you every foreseeable type of reaction that Mr Parker could come up with to teach to the masses how to achieve True Kenpo.

As a combat vet that served 26 years in the Army. I have used Kenpo in close range hand to hand. And, no the man did not come up and attack me by shaking my hand. But I did break a man's wrist with the wrist snap from gift of destruction. How his hand ended up in mine is just a mystery to me to this day. But the motion was there and when I realized what had happened the man had a compound fracture to his wrist and was very easy to control from that moment.

Kind of like when you park in a parking lot. Did you really think thru all the actions that got the car there. No, you thought there's one and next thing you know your turning the car off.

So,no these attacks are not realistic, nor are they even a technique that you will systematically follow thru each step of the technique until completed. But, the motion your body learns and the ability to feel comfortable right up on an opponent. These are the things you are learning.

Don't get caught up trying to figure out how many spokes the wheel has. Look ahead where the wheel is rolling.

True Kenpo is achievable if you train the techniques and apply the principles, theories, and concepts of force

my only comment on this is that what you describe as "true kenpo" hold true for every martial art and many other activities and sports. so it really has nothing to do with it being kenpo.