Kenpo Ground Fighting

[Blindside]

lI couldn't see your ground techs, but that's OK. I'm an old Kenpoist that can still do Kenpo very well. I have taught both Tracy and Ed Parker starting 1973. I had a school for4 20 years and I always just taught adults. I stayed with American Kenpo, but it was incomplete. For one, there are no ground techs. I am 5'2" slim and Gracie jujitsu that some Kenpo schools are teaching is not for every one. Kenpo schools that are teaching two arts, is not a Kenpo school in my eyes. For one, Kenpo should be Kenpo. I have kept Kenpo but have developed 52 ground techniques to get you off the ground and onto your feet in seconds. I have also created techs up to 10th degree black and I have not accepted another art into my Kenpo curriculum. Many stludents can't do Gracie techs and some don't want it. It is ground fighting and wrestling on the ground. I do not believe you should be on the ground longer than a few seconds. .
AKJ-American Kenpo
Sifu 10th degree black

Any chance you have any video of your material?

How big is your student base of students that you used to develop this system or who did you use to beta test this material on? Lots of things work great in the dojo, particularly Kenpo techniques, but don't work as well when the other guy isn't cooperating. Probably one of the biggest sticking points in kenpo as it is commonly taught.

 

[Headhunter]

Any chance you have any video of your material?

How big is your student base of students that you used to develop this system or who did you use to beta test this material on? Lots of things work great in the dojo, particularly Kenpo techniques, but don't work as well when the other guy isn't cooperating. Probably one of the biggest sticking points in kenpo as it is commonly taught.

Nah you've got to buy his book for that...


But kenpo techniques aren't meant to be done as they're taught that's not what they're for. It's like a catalogue of moves so yeah you practice them in sequences but when you need them you mix and match for what you need. Any competent instructor will tell you that and should be trained

 

[Blindside]

Nah you've got to buy his book for that...


But kenpo techniques aren't meant to be done as they're taught that's not what they're for. It's like a catalogue of moves so yeah you practice them in sequences but when you need them you mix and match for what you need. Any competent instructor will tell you that and should be trained

Of course, and we both know that many kenpo dojos get stuck doing more rote memorization then learning how to graft and flow between different pieces of techniques, and that even when they do there is a whole lot of stone statue kenpo going on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nah you've got to buy his book for that...


But kenpo techniques aren't meant to be done as they're taught that's not what they're for. It's like a catalogue of moves so yeah you practice them in sequences but when you need them you mix and match for what you need. Any competent instructor will tell you that and should be trained

Of course, and we both know that many kenpo dojos get stuck doing more rote memorization then learning how to graft and flow between different pieces of techniques, and that even when they do there is a whole lot of stone statue kenpo going on.

The more I hear of this, the more it sounds like NGA's "classical technique" approach, just taken in a different direction. And with the same risk: that people (students, and those same students later as instructors) will think the "technique" is the actual application. Within NGA, there are even some schools who have standardized what applications they teach, effectively reducing the learning to memorization and repetition, rather than learning the principles.

 

[Blindside]

The more I hear of this, the more it sounds like NGA's "classical technique" approach, just taken in a different direction. And with the same risk: that people (students, and those same students later as instructors) will think the "technique" is the actual application. Within NGA, there are even some schools who have standardized what applications they teach, effectively reducing the learning to memorization and repetition, rather than learning the principles.

IMO Kenpo's greatest common fault is the lack of resistance training. One of the reason's I moved away from it was because there was too much theory and not enough resistance. My kenpo school had a dual personality, on Thursday you worked techniques and forms and on Tuesdays you fought. We were turning out decent fighters because of the regular and intensive sparring but we just looked like hybrid karate kickboxers, there wasn't anything "kenpo" about us aside from kicking people in the groin on a regular basis. I think there is another way of making that leap between the technique idea (and kenpo techs are more like mini kata than a single lock or throw) and training against resistance than what my old school did.

 

[Headhunter]

Of course, and we both know that many kenpo dojos get stuck doing more rote memorization then learning how to graft and flow between different pieces of techniques, and that even when they do there is a whole lot of stone statue kenpo going on.

Tbh from what I've seen of kenpo now days. Is it's a bunch of lazy old men teaching who are to lazy to spar or do anything with resistance. They'd rather just do their forms and talk about the old days. Now not everyone's like that but I've seen a hell of a lot of it that's like that. I had one guy taking a warm up of basics once and was stopping every time we did a combo so he could give a 5 minute corrections speech. Now nothing against getting corrected but it's a warm up....your supposed to be warming not listening to a lecture

 

[Headhunter]

IMO Kenpo's greatest common fault is the lack of resistance training. One of the reason's I moved away from it was because there was too much theory and not enough resistance. My kenpo school had a dual personality, on Thursday you worked techniques and forms and on Tuesdays you fought. We were turning out decent fighters because of the regular and intensive sparring but we just looked like hybrid karate kickboxers, there wasn't anything "kenpo" about us aside from kicking people in the groin on a regular basis. I think there is another way of making that leap between the technique idea (and kenpo techs are more like mini kata than a single lock or throw) and training against resistance than what my old school did.

It's funny really because once someone was doing a technique on me. I knew the guy was bad with his control and his move was a kick to the groin and I wasn't in the mood to stand there and take that so after the first punch to the face I stepped back (which is most likely what would happen if you get punched) and his kick missed. He started bitching at me for moving. I said well you just punched me in the face I'm not going to be just standing there letting you am I. He said okay well you do that to me and I'll move. So I did and he moved and all I did was move in a little more and landed the kick. Because I actually practiced different ranges and different set ups and counters to the techniques where as this guy hadn't

 

[Blindside]

Tbh from what I've seen of kenpo now days. Is it's a bunch of lazy old men teaching who are to lazy to spar or do anything with resistance. They'd rather just do their forms and talk about the old days. Now not everyone's like that but I've seen a hell of a lot of it that's like that. I had one guy taking a warm up of basics once and was stopping every time we did a combo so he could give a 5 minute corrections speech. Now nothing against getting corrected but it's a warm up....your supposed to be warming not listening to a lecture

This is a bad and unsurprising trend for kenpo: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=kenpo,bjj

 

[punisher73]

It's not. Kenpo was always meant to be something that continued to evolve so using other systems is absolutely something ed Parker wanted and would've done had he not passed away when he did, it's a shame because he died in 1991 so 2 years before UFC started. Ed Parker was also a judo guy as well so he had grappling knowledge and with UFC he would've added more to kenpo. From what I've seen of this guy he's trying to sound clever that he's developed his own brand new techniques

Correct, Ed Parker was a 3rd Dan in Judo. He understood the grappling mentality and strategies. Prof. Chow's brand of kenpo that was taught to Ed Parker was heavily influenced by Danzan-Ryu JJ in Hawaii. The grab defenses in kenpo were designed against a judoka grabbing onto you and trying to break your balance. That being said, most schools don't train it that way and they lightly come up and "grab" your shirt. The technique, Lone Kimono that many people badmouth was used by Prof. Chow to break a judoka's arm one time when he grabbed and pushed. The way it is practiced now....not so much.

It must remembered that Ed Parker had his own private style that had very strict ways of doing things and was a lot more than the public commercial system he showed. Because SGM Parker was trying to expand his ideas he moved to a much more conceptual idea and it was supposed to be the job of the instructors to fill in the details of things. Again, back to the example of the self-defense techniques. You would first learn HOW to perform a wrist lock, or grab to throw properly before you learned how to defend against it.

Ed Parker also predicted the rise of grappling in combat sports due to the environment and rule sets. He was good friends with Gene Lebell and understood much more that what his commercial system illustrates.

 

[Martial D]

It's funny really because once someone was doing a technique on me. I knew the guy was bad with his control and his move was a kick to the groin and I wasn't in the mood to stand there and take that so after the first punch to the face I stepped back (which is most likely what would happen if you get punched) and his kick missed. He started bitching at me for moving. I said well you just punched me in the face I'm not going to be just standing there letting you am I. He said okay well you do that to me and I'll move. So I did and he moved and all I did was move in a little more and landed the kick. Because I actually practiced different ranges and different set ups and counters to the techniques where as this guy hadn't

Ya, it's kind of sad. A lot of TMA leave the concept of distance and timing at the door.

All the technique in the world is useless if you don't train those two things.

 

[Buka]

I really liked Ed Parker, he was a really nice and interesting man. Learned a lot from him. And, man, could he SCRAP. Really fast hands, too. Really fast.

Ed and I 1980 or so.

Fighting Ed was like fighting a fire hose filled with rocks.

 

[Headhunter]

I really liked Ed Parker, he was a really nice and interesting man. Learned a lot from him. And, man, could he SCRAP. Really fast hands, too. Really fast.

View attachment 22191
Ed and I 1980 or so.

Fighting Ed was like fighting a fire hose filled with rocks.

Oh trust me my issue isn't with ed Parker it's with the people who are ruining his art by not following his basic wants for the system. The man was obviously a genius in both martial arts and business and though I never met him or saw him fight on the videos I've seen its obvious how fast and strong he was for a guy his size. I mean yeah he didn't have the body of a UFC fighter but that doesn't mean he can't fight (though it could've sad,y contributed to his heart attack that killed him)

 

[Headhunter]

I really liked Ed Parker, he was a really nice and interesting man. Learned a lot from him. And, man, could he SCRAP. Really fast hands, too. Really fast.

View attachment 22191
Ed and I 1980 or so.

Fighting Ed was like fighting a fire hose filled with rocks.

Also what happened? Was your jacket in the wash that day lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO Kenpo's greatest common fault is the lack of resistance training. One of the reason's I moved away from it was because there was too much theory and not enough resistance. My kenpo school had a dual personality, on Thursday you worked techniques and forms and on Tuesdays you fought. We were turning out decent fighters because of the regular and intensive sparring but we just looked like hybrid karate kickboxers, there wasn't anything "kenpo" about us aside from kicking people in the groin on a regular basis. I think there is another way of making that leap between the technique idea (and kenpo techs are more like mini kata than a single lock or throw) and training against resistance than what my old school did.

My solution has been to have three kinds of "sparring", plus one:

1. Sparring - strikes only (might allow a sweep if on mats).
2. Randori - standing grappling only (allow some slaps and such sometimes, to keep people honest, allow some move to ground control after a takedown).
3. Rolling - groundwork only (sometimes starting from an assigned takedown, always either to control or to escape). We don't do a lot of this...if I had more classes, I'd spend more time on this.
4. Mixed sparring - Any/all of the above, with a focus of trying to get past striking defense to get a takedown. This I keep light and technical, both because it's more chaotic and because it takes up a lot of space when it escalates.

I don't spend enough time (by my own judgment) on this. There's just not enough time to spend. So I do spend most of the sparring time on strikes-only sparring (#1). That might change if/as I have a group of more experienced students.

 

[Buka]

Oh trust me my issue isn't with ed Parker it's with the people who are ruining his art by not following his basic wants for the system. The man was obviously a genius in both martial arts and business and though I never met him or saw him fight on the videos I've seen its obvious how fast and strong he was for a guy his size. I mean yeah he didn't have the body of a UFC fighter but that doesn't mean he can't fight (though it could've sad,y contributed to his heart attack that killed him)

Also what happened? Was your jacket in the wash that day lol

I didn't think you had an issue with Ed Parker, I was just yapping because I hadn't thought about Ed in a while. When I was twelve I saw him on the Lucy Show and I knew I was doomed to do Martial Arts forever.
So far, so good.
(The title of that episode was Lucy and Viv do Judo.)


As for my gi top, some days we just wore school t-shirts when we fought. I'm sure I had one in my bag if the need arose. I always carried everything I might need for any given Martial situation. On that particular day Ed was doing a seminar for Kenpo Black Belts and I was his designated Uke. And I wasn't even a Kenpo student at the time. I know that might sound odd, but Ed liked to throw some curve balls to the Kenpo Mucky Mucks at times. Man, did I have me some fun.

 

[Headhunter]

I didn't think you had an issue with Ed Parker, I was just yapping because I hadn't thought about Ed in a while. When I was twelve I saw him on the Lucy Show and I knew I was doomed to do Martial Arts forever.
So far, so good.
(The title of that episode was Lucy and Viv do Judo.)


As for my gi top, some days we just wore school t-shirts when we fought. I'm sure I had one in my bag if the need arose. I always carried everything I might need for any given Martial situation. On that particular day Ed was doing a seminar for Kenpo Black Belts and I was his designated Uke. And I wasn't even a Kenpo student at the time. I know that might sound odd, but Ed liked to throw some curve balls to the Kenpo Mucky Mucks at times. Man, did I have me some fun.

Was that really awful sketch show where you can see ep Parker laughing at how stupid it is

 

[punisher73]

IMO Kenpo's greatest common fault is the lack of resistance training. One of the reason's I moved away from it was because there was too much theory and not enough resistance. My kenpo school had a dual personality, on Thursday you worked techniques and forms and on Tuesdays you fought. We were turning out decent fighters because of the regular and intensive sparring but we just looked like hybrid karate kickboxers, there wasn't anything "kenpo" about us aside from kicking people in the groin on a regular basis. I think there is another way of making that leap between the technique idea (and kenpo techs are more like mini kata than a single lock or throw) and training against resistance than what my old school did.

Most schools don't teach them, but SGM Parker's "Freestyle Techniques" were supposed to be a method to bridge the gap between the self-defense techniques and free sparrring.

 

[Blindside]

Was that really awful sketch show where you can see ep Parker laughing at how stupid it is

I Love Lucy was one of the most popular shows on television in the 50s, one the of early sitcoms.
edit: Hey look Dance of Death and I forgot what a terrible spinning back kick Mr. Parker had.

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

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http://ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html


Here are 2 clips of whats being called grappling or ground fighting, in Kenpo. My intent isn't to bash the guys in the clips, but instead, to analyze and discuss the clips. I'm looking to discuss things such as...

What did you like/dislike about the clips?

What would you do or have done differently?

Do you think that the defenses that were presented were effective? Why/why not?

Just a few things to get the ball rolling. You dont have to limit your replies to just those questions. And as always, this discussion is open to non Kenpoists as well.

Fifty years in Kenpo and I've learned one thing, get off the ground now! I use the basic leg trap and throwing my hip up and to the left side, while pulling his arm to the left side. I then never start hitting him on the ground, I jump up and onto my feet. Others may be behind him so be ready.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Fifty years in Kenpo and I've learned one thing, get off the ground now! I use the basic leg trap and throwing my hip up and to the left side, while pulling his arm to the left side. I then never start hitting him on the ground, I jump up and onto my feet. Others may be behind him so be ready.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

Is there a reason you include your length of time training kenpo in each post? Having it in your profile is normally enough, or answering questions regarding it-if anyone has questions, they can ask. Otherwise, I find you get better discussion if you let your posts speak for themselves.
Given most people here have trained for decades, not many are going to be too swayed by your 50 years.