B1-A, B1-B effectiveness.

[Touch Of Death]

Sometimes my computer will actually let me view the kenponet Forum, but mostly not. On my last successfull atempt, I was informed B1-A and B1-B won't work against a trained fighter. I thought, because the subject was interesting and my computer won't allow me to see Kenponet forum stuff, someone on Martial Talk could explain why these methods are obsolete.
Sean

 

[stone_dragone]

Without having read the thread, I would guess that they are grossly ineffective because the author of that post can't make them work.

A different angle could be that they don't work for the same reason that Delayed Sword and Lone Kimono don't work...the defender's motion is lame...yada, yada, yada...

I think, based on my limited exposure to the freestyle formula techniques, that they will work in the same way that defensive techniques work - as an idea. They are sufficient as starting points from which to build offensive techniques, and then what if's, and as the army calls them branches and sequels off of the main sequence.

Really only my bored-at-work .02

 

[Touch Of Death]

I would tend to agree. B is supposed to stand for your base. What is wrong with our base; or, what is wrong with a back knuckle, followed by a right cross at the appropriate distance?

 

[DRANKIN]

Grabbing, pinning, jamming or manipulating the lead arm works very well against even the "trained" fighter. Provided they aren't expecting it.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

The freestyle combinations are most effective in stand-up sparring. Although they may work in an actual fighting situation, there are much better tools to bring to the party.

Just my two cents, although I suspect the earlier "they don't work because I can't figure them out" factor plays a part in this particular post.

 

[Carol]

I think it is important to keep B1-A and B1-B in perspective. These are moves that a person typically learns as a white or yellow belt.

A person who has studied a foreign language for a few months may have a difficult time conversing with someone who has studied the same language for a few years. In the same vein, a white or yellow belt, esp. if they have no other fighting experience, is going to have a tough time against a well-trained fighter. That's not Kenpo's fault or the student's fault -- that's just reality. These concepts are taught as a growing point, something that a beginning student can learn and do that is in the reach of their capabilities, and build upon as they learn.

We use similar concepts in the FMAs for both empty-hand and weapons. They work! And if a newer student needs to use them in a live situation, the basics they do know will serve them much better than the fancy stuff they don't know. However, success in application relies heavily on footwork, footwork, footwork. This something that is not drilled as rigorously in many Kenpo schools, and in turn may be the core of why some folks say they don't work.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The freestyle combinations are most effective in stand-up sparring. Although they may work in an actual fighting situation, there are much better tools to bring to the party.

Just my two cents, although I suspect the earlier "they don't work because I can't figure them out" factor plays a part in this particular post.

I understand that trained fighter got some skills, but should we just not practice back-knuckle shots? What are the better tools?
Sean

 

[Thesemindz]

If pull down checks, guard sweeps, and strikes to your opponent's head and body don't work, you're problem isn't that you're training the wrong techniques. It's that you're not training enough.

These techniques work. But you have to spend time squared off with an opponent, grabbing and pulling each other's arms and trading shots to the head and body. You get better by practicing. There are lots of techniques I couldn't do effectively when I first learned them. Like the front kick. I did more front kicks. I got better.

The freestyle techniques are like any other techniques. You have to set them up. You have to apply them to the correct context. You have to take advantage of timing, distance, and angles. You can't just throw them at your opponent like mud on a barn door and hope they stick. You have to be smart, and you have to have trained hard.

But if you are, and you do, the freestyle techniques work. The reason fighters grapple is because it's hard to disable an opponent with traumatic striking. You have to hit them in the head and body, and their limbs get in the way. The point of the base freestyle techniques is to pull their limbs out of the way and strike to the head and body. That isn't unique to kenpo. That isn't unique to asian martial arts. That's basic, universal fighting strategy. If your opponent leaves his lead guard hand out away from his body where you can swipe at it to knock it out of the way and follow up with strikes to vulnerable core targets, you do that.

If you can't make that work, keep practicing. If you think it doesn't work, keep practicing. Most of the people who complain about it will either give up on martial arts all together, because it's hard, or they'll just drop out of kenpo and go train in some other art that will teach them to clear their opponent's guard and strike at his head and body.

And then they'll probably brag about how they've finally found something that works.


-Rob

 

[Touch Of Death]

If pull down checks, guard sweeps, and strikes to your opponent's head and body don't work, you're problem isn't that you're training the wrong techniques. It's that you're not training enough.

These techniques work. But you have to spend time squared off with an opponent, grabbing and pulling each other's arms and trading shots to the head and body. You get better by practicing. There are lots of techniques I couldn't do effectively when I first learned them. Like the front kick. I did more front kicks. I got better.

The freestyle techniques are like any other techniques. You have to set them up. You have to apply them to the correct context. You have to take advantage of timing, distance, and angles. You can't just throw them at your opponent like mud on a barn door and hope they stick. You have to be smart, and you have to have trained hard.

But if you are, and you do, the freestyle techniques work. The reason fighters grapple is because it's hard to disable an opponent with traumatic striking. You have to hit them in the head and body, and their limbs get in the way. The point of the base freestyle techniques is to pull their limbs out of the way and strike to the head and body. That isn't unique to kenpo. That isn't unique to asian martial arts. That's basic, universal fighting strategy. If your opponent leaves his lead guard hand out away from his body where you can swipe at it to knock it out of the way and follow up with strikes to vulnerable core targets, you do that.

If you can't make that work, keep practicing. If you think it doesn't work, keep practicing. Most of the people who complain about it will either give up on martial arts all together, because it's hard, or they'll just drop out of kenpo and go train in some other art that will teach them to clear their opponent's guard and strike at his head and body.

And then they'll probably brag about how they've finally found something that works.


-Rob

I'm sorry, but pulling limbs was never the point.
Sean

 

[Thesemindz]

I'm sorry, but pulling limbs was never the point.
Sean

Ok. Maybe we aren't talking about the same techniques. Where I train, 1a has always been a Countergrab to the Opponent's Lead Hand with a Lead Hand Pull Down Check with an In Place Pivot and a Rear Hand Strike to the Opponents High Zone. 1b is a Countergrab to the Opponent's Lead Hand with a Lead Hand Outward Pulling Check and a Rear Hand Strike to the Opponent's Mid Zone. Is that roughly what you mean by those terms?

Now if you are saying that the purpose of these techniques is not solely to move the Opponent's arms, but also to manipulate his position, shift his balance, cancel his zones and weapons, and create angles of cancellation (zones of sanctuary), then I would agree. But it's also done to create openings, and that means pulling the opponent's guard away from his vital targets.

Maybe we are just talking about different things. The language of kenpo isn't very universal anymore. If that's so, my mistake.


-Rob

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ok. Maybe we aren't talking about the same techniques. Where I train, 1a has always been a Countergrab to the Opponent's Lead Hand with a Lead Hand Pull Down Check with an In Place Pivot and a Rear Hand Strike to the Opponents High Zone. 1b is a Countergrab to the Opponent's Lead Hand with a Lead Hand Outward Pulling Check and a Rear Hand Strike to the Opponent's Mid Zone. Is that roughly what you mean by those terms?

Now if you are saying that the purpose of these techniques is not solely to move the Opponent's arms, but also to manipulate his position, shift his balance, cancel his zones and weapons, and create angles of cancellation (zones of sanctuary), then I would agree. But it's also done to create openings, and that means pulling the opponent's guard away from his vital targets.

Maybe we are just talking about different things. The language of kenpo isn't very universal anymore. If that's so, my mistake.


-Rob

We are it sounds, but the grabbing and pulling, is just a simple exercise that you can do during the performance. If its about something, its about placing yourself at a close range, setting up with the left, and thrusting with the right; so, even if the guys hands are cuffed behind his back, you are still doing B1-A or B1-B, every time you engage. Its our base. All further numbers after the initial B denote the footwork it takes to set up our base.
Sean

 

[ATACX GYM]

If pull down checks, guard sweeps, and strikes to your opponent's head and body don't work, you're problem isn't that you're training the wrong techniques. It's that you're not training enough.

These techniques work. But you have to spend time squared off with an opponent, grabbing and pulling each other's arms and trading shots to the head and body. You get better by practicing. There are lots of techniques I couldn't do effectively when I first learned them. Like the front kick. I did more front kicks. I got better.

The freestyle techniques are like any other techniques. You have to set them up. You have to apply them to the correct context. You have to take advantage of timing, distance, and angles. You can't just throw them at your opponent like mud on a barn door and hope they stick. You have to be smart, and you have to have trained hard.

But if you are, and you do, the freestyle techniques work. The reason fighters grapple is because it's hard to disable an opponent with traumatic striking. You have to hit them in the head and body, and their limbs get in the way. The point of the base freestyle techniques is to pull their limbs out of the way and strike to the head and body. That isn't unique to kenpo. That isn't unique to asian martial arts. That's basic, universal fighting strategy. If your opponent leaves his lead guard hand out away from his body where you can swipe at it to knock it out of the way and follow up with strikes to vulnerable core targets, you do that.

If you can't make that work, keep practicing. If you think it doesn't work, keep practicing. Most of the people who complain about it will either give up on martial arts all together, because it's hard, or they'll just drop out of kenpo and go train in some other art that will teach them to clear their opponent's guard and strike at his head and body.

And then they'll probably brag about how they've finally found something that works.


-Rob

I agree with this statement.The only thing I'd add to it is the admonition to not just "train",but to TRAIN FUNCTIONALLY.Train against energy,motion,timing (aka ALIVE training) and do so at escalating levels of resistance.First,you should learn the specific purpose of each technique and why you do it that way.Second you learn the movements (no sparring partner yet).Third,you drill the movements CORRECTLY like shadowboxing.Fourth you perform the movements against a partner who is NOT resisting you.Fifth,you try it against light spontaneous resistance.And so forth until you can execute the technique full force against full force resistance.This process should NOT take long.IT'S A FALLACY TO BELIEVE THAT IT DOES,and it reflects a complacency in our teaching methods and mindstate if any kenpo sensei believes the contrary to be the case.I routinely have my students up to par with their techniques in 3 training days.It's ROUTINE.The difference is that I apply very functional,very performance oriented drills that MANDATE performance enhancement from Day 1.This is NOT A SECRET METHOD,lol.Sport specific drilling is where it's at.Do that.And watch how blazingly fast your students improve and LOVE IMPROVING.They won't mind spending extra time at a lower rank because they develope so regularly and consistently they won't mind putting in the reps and drills to acquire the requisite skills for each belt rank,stripe or whatever.In fact,they'll LOVE the drills and drilling,and they'll really respect the upper ranks who've already gone through what they're going through.Discipline has NEVER been a prob for me.Lack of energy in my class NEVER happens.We sweat,drill,exercise,punch kick throw hit sweep push trip submit roll escape scramble and run away from each other,and have lotsa fun doing it.

Translate B1-A and B1-B into various sports specific drills that focus on trapping/removing/etc the opponent's limbs,and watch the questions and doubts evaporate.I use 6 drills as the core of teaching this method.I break the drills and reps down into rounds of from 30 second to 5 minutes in length.I have never had a student take more than 1 day to perform against resistance.NEVER.Usually it takes about 3-4 rounds to get them in a groove,and that's all they need to start sharply improving from there.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I understand that trained fighter got some skills, but should we just not practice back-knuckle shots? What are the better tools?
Sean

Never let anyone talk you out of the backfist or any other weapon in the Kenpo arsenal or any other MA arsenal...instead practice each technique functionally.The backfist loses much of its potency when wearing boxing or even MMA gloves; it STILL WORKS,it just DOESN'T WORK AS WELL.When you crack someone bareknuckle with the backfist? Whole different song.In the MT gym I've clanged people in the hips,temples,nose,necks,ears,wrists,etc. to marvelous effect.I've fired the backfist disguised as crosses,jabs,and even uppercuts.Same thing with the hammerfist.You feint your opponent out of position by starting the technique one way and finishing another way,and WHEW! Watch what happens.I've banged people with the cross/hammerfist combination.(Look at the link in my sig for my youtube Channel and see me demo it on my ALTERNATING MACES MITTWORK FOR BEGINNERS I video).I've used the backfist/ridgehand combos from the same hand while disguising it as a jab so many times that I'm infamous for it in the MT and boxing gyms in LBC CA.I've done it bareknuckle and while we're in handwraps to emphasize the point that sport combat reduces the effectiveness of the self-defense arsenal,so that's why I train for street first and the ring next.It's faaar easier and more sensible to train for the street and ratchet DOWN for the ring then discover under pressure that training for tourneys and the ring may hamstring you because you can't upgrade to street conditions.