kenpo blocking and phases

[cfr]

Here is my meager martial arts experiece:

6 months in a guys garage. All one on one lessons. Involved kickboxing, brazillian jui jutsu, jap jui jutsu, and judo. Very intense. Very untraditional. He moved away or I would still be there.

5 months of Hapkido. I liked the style itself. But it is a very plush, catering to preppies, not very intense school. (no, not even to the upper belts) I left due to its babying of students.

3 months Kenpo. At my particular Kenpo school, what originally attracted me was the intensity. The owner got her black belt under John Conway Sr. from Panorama City, Ca. a long time ago. She has trined with Ed Parker as well. She currently trains under Dan Inosanto in JKD. (I think thats it) The other head instructor used to do real fighting back before there were rules. (eye gouging, etc.) They also incorporate boxing and Wing Chun into the mix. I left due to a foot injury that Im still recovering from.

With all that said, I need to say that my questions are in no way intended to offend anyone. I know that Kenpo is a great art for lots of people. What Im trying to find out is if its the art for me.

1. Kenpo blocking. Basically Karate blocks. Inside, outside, upward and so on... Does anyone use these in a real fight? Having watched a few UFC's( Im aware that is not the end all be all of fighting or self defense) I never see these traditional blocks used when it counts. I have never sparred so I am unaware of if they are a realistic way to block in a real situation. Having talked to only one person who was in Kenpo for a while, he said that he never uses them in sparring. From what I have read "you fight how you train". If that is so, why train them if you wouldnt really use them? If this question is getting your blood boiling, please read the paragraph before this one. What is your take on them?

2. Phases of Kenpo. Ive read other posts that mentioned the three phases of Kenpo. Ideal, what if, and I forget what its called. ( Im sure some of you know) My question is how long to these phases take to achive. My goals for MA is self defense. Im not really interested in upholding tradtion, being a better me, or anything like that. I have spiritual practices to learn discipline and integrity. So what Im getting at is I want to learn fast. I want to learn to fight effectively in a short period of time. When my foot is better and I start training again, Kenpo is obviously on the possibilities list. But is it the type of art that takes several years to defend yourself with?
Other arts in my list of possibilities are attractive to me because of the speed at which they can *supposedly* get you able to adequately defend yourself. Whats your take on this?

Thanks to everyone for their input. And again, Im in no way trying to bash Kenpo. Just figure out if its for me.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by cfr

Here is my meager martial arts experiece:

6 months in a guys garage. All one on one lessons. Involved kickboxing, brazillian jui jutsu, jap jui jutsu, and judo. Very intense. Very untraditional. He moved away or I would still be there.

5 months of Hapkido. I liked the style itself. But it is a very plush, catering to preppies, not very intense school. (no, not even to the upper belts) I left due to its babying of students.

3 months Kenpo. At my particular Kenpo school, what originally attracted me was the intensity. The owner got her black belt under John Conway Sr. from Panorama City, Ca. a long time ago. She has trined with Ed Parker as well. She currently trains under Dan Inosanto in JKD. (I think thats it) The other head instructor used to do real fighting back before there were rules. (eye gouging, etc.) They also incorporate boxing and Wing Chun into the mix. I left due to a foot injury that Im still recovering from.

With all that said, I need to say that my questions are in no way intended to offend anyone. I know that Kenpo is a great art for lots of people. What Im trying to find out is if its the art for me.

1. Kenpo blocking. Basically Karate blocks. Inside, outside, upward and so on... Does anyone use these in a real fight? Having watched a few UFC's( Im aware that is not the end all be all of fighting or self defense) I never see these traditional blocks used when it counts. I have never sparred so I am unaware of if they are a realistic way to block in a real situation. Having talked to only one person who was in Kenpo for a while, he said that he never uses them in sparring. From what I have read "you fight how you train". If that is so, why train them if you wouldnt really use them? If this question is getting your blood boiling, please read the paragraph before this one. What is your take on them?

2. Phases of Kenpo. Ive read other posts that mentioned the three phases of Kenpo. Ideal, what if, and I forget what its called. ( Im sure some of you know) My question is how long to these phases take to achive. My goals for MA is self defense. Im not really interested in upholding tradtion, being a better me, or anything like that. I have spiritual practices to learn discipline and integrity. So what Im getting at is I want to learn fast. I want to learn to fight effectively in a short period of time. When my foot is better and I start training again, Kenpo is obviously on the possibilities list. But is it the type of art that takes several years to defend yourself with?
Other arts in my list of possibilities are attractive to me because of the speed at which they can *supposedly* get you able to adequately defend yourself. Whats your take on this?

Thanks to everyone for their input. And again, Im in no way trying to bash Kenpo. Just figure out if its for me.

Hello chris; I will attempt to answer your question (1) honestly and a little part of (2). Kenpo combines both circular and linear motion which can be used both separately or in combination. This not only includes strikes, but blocking also. In my kenpo system, our blocks are circular to set-up linear and circular combination striking, breaking, elbowing, kneeing, kicking and animal fist striking. So here the circular block and/or parry sets-up the strikes. Since we a strictly defensive system, this methodology works to our advantage as practitioners. The circular blocking motion can double as a strike also. As you can aready assume; my system of kenpo is not the American or EPAK system. Yet it's roots do lie within these 2 systems and beyond. The concept of blocking trap breaks, dislocations and manipulations in the trapping of the attacker's natural weapons (arms, legs, etc,) gives our system a unique look at the attacker's specific exposed vital and soft tissue target areas for the explosive counter-attack. Thus, it is not the point of what type of block that is used, for each block has it's ideal functioning situation. Yet, it is the adaptability and yieldability of the practitioner too each distinct unique attacking situation which determines what type of block or blocking combinations that will be used to set-up the defender's finishing motion/(s) in failing the attack! Now as far as question (2.) The last phase is the Formulation Phase; it will depend on what style of kenpo that is incorporating these 3 phases into their respective programs which will determine at what rank, point in training or practitioner skill developmental stage etc, that the last 2 phases will be examined. Since this 3 phase conceptuality is originally an American Kenpo EPAK conceptual method, it will be best to let one of them explain the rest to you. For information on my style of kenpo, please click on the www. next to my profile. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear cfr:

Why don't you simply buy a gun--and it's a real question, not a rhetorical one.

What you claim to want, if I'm reading your posts correctly--and I probably am, unless you're simply setting people up--is technology without responsibility. So why in the world should anybody help you acquire that?

Not only is it a violation of all sorts of principles in martial arts that are simultaneously practical (quick fixes don't work) and moral (if they did work, they'd almost always be wrong), but it isn't logical.

The logical end of technology without responsibility is a gun, a flame-thrower, a nuke. So why are you bothering to study martial arts at all, given that their essential spirit is antithetical to all that?

There's only one way out of this, and it contradicts your idea that you already have "spiritual practices," which you see as separate from martial arts. Don't separate them. Maybe--as for myself and many others--martial arts offer you something you can't get any other way.

So--either find a good teacher/school and stick with it, or buy into technology. Why waste your time with study?--a real question, incidentally.

Sincerely,
Dr. Edmund Teller

 

[cfr]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Dear cfr:

What you claim to want, if I'm reading your posts correctly--and I probably am, unless you're simply setting people up--is technology without responsibility. So why in the world should anybody help you acquire that?

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Yes you are reading them incorrectly. What I am looking for is a self defense system that is realistic and easy to learn. I dont find that very strange. I dont want a gun. I like training. I just dont want to spend years of my life getting a false sense of security. I want to train in something realistic. Something that will work for me. Something I beleive in. Obviously I have some interest in Kenpo or I wouldnt bother to ask these questions.

 

[Doc]

"Realistic" AND "easy to learn." Why didn't you say so. I really hate to say this but, (I'm frowning) take the advice and buy a gun. Everybody wants to be a Navy Seal but nobody wants to get wet.

 

[Seig]

There are two main division of seals (Pinniped) -- the "eared" seals (Otariidae) and the "true" seals (Phocidae), which have no protruding ear. Members of both types are found in the far south. The "eared" seals have hairless hind flippers that can be brought under their body on land. They propel themselves in water with their long front flippers and on land they use these appendages to bound along, making them very agile. "True" seals have furred hind flippers that they use to swim, but on land they are dragged behind the body. They are clumsy and awkward out of the water, moving in "snakelike" undulations.

There are four truly Antarctic species of seals: the Weddell, the Ross, the Crabeater and the Leopard and two more that visit the continent, the Elephant and the Fur Seal. Of these, only the Fur Seal belongs to the Otariidae, or eared order. All Antarctic seals feed at sea using sonar (echolocation) and the enhanced sight of their large eyes. Each of the species feeds on a different diet, or in a different region, so there is little competition between them for resources.

Me, I don't wanna be a seal, they live in cold environments and have to eat raw fish all the time! YUCK :barf: No thanks!:rofl:

 

[matthewgreenland]

CFR - Mr. Parker used to say, "Quick to learn, quick to forget. Slow to learn, slow to forget." This quote seems to be quite fitting. I am going to lay it on the line and be blunt - since opening this thread, I think that you have really taken it on the chin, so to speak.

You are posing this question to a group of Kenpoists. I will say this about Kenpoists, if I speak out of line - brothers and sisters- tell me, but Kenpoists are individuals who spend a lot of time in training, refining, ananlyzing, conceptualizing, and studying motion. We don't know what a quick fix would be. To me, Kenpo is very addicive.

Your question, in a nut shell: can you quickly learn applicable street style self-defense in kenpo? Yes, you can; however, anything in life worth doing is worth doing right. The longer you stick with it the more proficient you'll become. Like working on computers - you didn't become a wiz in a day.

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

Ph.D.'s don't come in one night. Good martial artists aren't made with a few lessons. - One can't expect to take a few lessons, learn a few "tricks-of-the-trade and walk away feeling they could win any confrontation.

Don't be in such a hurry. Unless you have been threatened to meet BIG JOHN behind the water tower in a month for a fight - take your time to learn, i'll say that again, LEARN the art, the art of motion.

Hope I helped friend.

 

[Sigung86]

Actually, as I get older, I find I'm becoming more and more fond of the idea of a gun!:rofl:

Dan

 

[Robbo]

Kenpo is a brutal and a street effective art......but only if you study for it's spiritual side and for 20 years.

Come on people, you're being a little elitist don't you think. Just because the guy was honest and asked a couple of questions you start telling him that he's got to be in it for the long haul.

LOTS of people study MA for self defence reasons, are we supposed to turn these people away at our door because they can't commit to 20 years of study.

By answering his questions and showing him what he needs we may swell the Kenpo ranks by one. We sure are not going to get him interested by telling him to go and buy a gun.

There are lots of 'weekend' courses that deal with self defense from more of a awareness point rather than being proficient. If that's what is needed then start him off with that and then reinforce that technical proficiency comes with years of training.

Anyway enough of a rant,

Question 1)

The blocks (movements) of kenpo in their basic form are like a alphabet of motion. Think of learning to speak. First you hae to formulate words phoenetically. Words such as ca-at, ra-at, ba-at. This would be akin to the cocking the arm and then blocking with the arm (ideal phase). As you learn the alphabet more thouroughly and start to say the words properly, cat, rat, bat, you eliminate wasted motion and start to explore the true effectiveness of the blocks (movements), using point of origin blocking, hammering blocking, parrying, etc., in different situations (what if phase). Lastly when you have internalized the language of Kenpo (movment) you begin to form your own sentances (spontaneous phase). This is where you would tailor the blocks to the situation. You could say the cat ate the rat that was chased by the bat.

The preceding was loosly based on Mr. Parker's explanation of the three phases.

Having talked to only one person who was in Kenpo for a while, he said that he never uses them in sparring.

This guy is flat out WRONG. Does he just float around hitting people at will and not getting hit. Where do you think the blocks he uses in sparring came from?

The blocks may not resemble the original basic movement but they sure are based upon them just as all movement in Kenpo is built around the 'basics'.

2. Phases of Kenpo. Ive read other posts that mentioned the three phases of Kenpo. Ideal, what if, and I forget what its called.

I think what you are looking for is...

1) Ideal Phase - White - Blue 3 1/2-4 years
2) What if Phase - Blue - Black - 2 years
3) Spontaneous Phase - Black and up - still working on it

Keep in mind these phases are constantly beeing applied to new material.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[cfr]

Originally posted by matthewgreenland

CFR - Mr. Parker used to say, "Quick to learn, quick to forget. Slow to learn, slow to forget." This quote seems to be quite fitting. I am going to lay it on the line and be blunt - since opening this thread, I think that you have really taken it on the chin, so to speak.

You are posing this question to a group of Kenpoists. I will say this about Kenpoists, if I speak out of line - brothers and sisters- tell me, but Kenpoists are individuals who spend a lot of time in training, refining, ananlyzing, conceptualizing, and studying motion. We don't know what a quick fix would be. To me, Kenpo is very addicive.

Your question, in a nut shell: can you quickly learn applicable street style self-defense in kenpo? Yes, you can; however, anything in life worth doing is worth doing right. The longer you stick with it the more proficient you'll become. Like working on computers - you didn't become a wiz in a day.

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

Ph.D.'s don't come in one night. Good martial artists aren't made with a few lessons. - One can't expect to take a few lessons, learn a few "tricks-of-the-trade and walk away feeling they could win any confrontation.

Don't be in such a hurry. Unless you have been threatened to meet BIG JOHN behind the water tower in a month for a fight - take your time to learn, i'll say that again, LEARN the art, the art of motion.

Hope I helped friend.

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around.  Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at.  Bottom line- give it some time.

 

[cfr]

Originally posted by matthewgreenland

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry for my other reply post that is completely twieked. Can someone tell me how to get the lite blue box around words when I quote somebody?

Anyways, I appreciate you response. I am attempting to avoid further bouncing around. Thats why Im asking these questions. If you'll note at the top of my original post, my first instructor moved. If he stayed in this state, I would still be there. My second school was giving its students(IMHO) the false sense of security I was trying to avoid. It took some time to realize that. Im still technically at my Kenpo school. I want to stick to something for a while. Thats the reason for my posts.

Again I appreciate your response. I just dont want people to think Im looking for a "quick fix". I think there is a big difference between a "quick fix" and a Martial Art that can be learned quickly.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that there is such a thing as a martial art or a method of self-defense that can be learned quickly. I beleive that if you try this, you will fail when the crunch comes.

The basic reason is this: martial arts, and self defense, is about more than techniques and moves. The moves and techniques, the constant drilling, is there as a means to an end--it's there to get at the mind and the heart. So what are you training, in the end? Just the body?

So far, everybody I've seen who claimed they learned an effective art quickly already started out knowing things it took me years to learn. They were cops, or soldiers, or wrestlers...but they weren't really novices.

Kenpo's a great art. It takes a long time.

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson


So far, everybody I've seen who claimed they learned an effective art quickly already started out knowing things it took me years to learn. They were cops, or soldiers, or wrestlers...but they weren't really novices.

Kenpo's a great art. It takes a long time.

Well I have been all 3, I learned a lot of bad habits that I am still trying to break for EP Kenpo...........

And it is truly amazing when you reflect on it, and it does take a long time its still hard to grasp and control that sometimes

I guess burger king always has the 30 second drive through thing for our instant gratification demands

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
I learned a lot of bad habits that I am still trying to break for EP Kenpo...........

What are some of those "bad habits" that you (and others of us) may have, that we need to work on?

:asian:

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



What are some of those "bad habits" that you (and others of us) may have, that we need to work on?

:asian:

I have horrible posture! (from wrestling head first I think) my stance was always my head and arms out over my body to stop shooting in on my legs, I lean in alot instead of staying errect, I have to really work on it while doing forms, self defence techniques etc.

in the army the self defence that we learned as infantry men was more like basic grappling and we did not go into alot of stance work or building power from stances.

When I went through the police academy alot of the self defense tacticsand weapon retention we learned where squaring off (I think due to panel shots through vests) and most of my continuing education we train the same way (too many officers die from panel shots through the ribs where they have no protection from a vest) So I think alot of training is being geared that way.

I guess the biggest thing for me is getting my body timing where it needs to be and posture, kenpo is a completely different way of moving, reacting, and being aware.

to make a long story short....


Posture, and footwork have been the hardest, Ive trained alot of upperbody arm movements without having to coordinate them to my lower body.

 

[Goldendragon7]

You brought up a lot of common issues with many today!! It always makes me think whenever I hear an officer of the law or an military man describe their training ....... that one would think today with all we have available ........ that the academy's would be much better at hand to hand...... especially when you NEED it as often as the police do!!

As Earl Pitts would say........ WAKE UP AMERICA!

:asian:

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

You brought up a lot of common issues with many today!! It always makes me think whenever I hear an officer of the law or an military man describe their training ....... that one would think today with all we have available ........ that the academy's would be much better at hand to hand...... especially when you NEED it as often as the police do!!

As Earl Pitts would say........ WAKE UP AMERICA!

:asian:

That is honestly why I have fallen in love with it....I have a smidgen of the system and it has GREATLY helped me, I talk about it so much to the other officers that they are tired of hearing about it Im sure, but when I have needed it, kenpo has gotten me out of it and I dont end up in situations half as bad as some of the other officers do, dirtbags can read you pretty well with no formal training they know who to go after and who not, they look for openings, kenpo helps close those. It would be awsome if someone could come up with a practical course of Kenpo for law enforcement officers but everyone is so liability and civil action scared that I dont think it will ever happen......

pray for our guys out there reguardless of what the media says some of us are still trying to do the right thing on the streets.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Sad but true.... I hear this same thing all over the country! They are afraid to teach the officers something extremely useful for fear that someone will abuse it like we see on TV every day with some officer getting caught on camera being a little heavy handed ....... but the flip side is what everyone does not see...... why was this guy in that salutation in the first place... Police don't just go around grabbing guys and throwing them up against a wall for nothing!!:shrug:

:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Sad but true.... I hear this same thing all over the country! They are afraid to teach the officers something extremely useful for fear that someone will abuse it like we see on TV every day with some officer getting caught on camera being a little heavy handed ....... but the flip side is what everyone does not see...... why was this guy in that salutation in the first place... Police don't just go around grabbing guys and throwing them up against a wall for nothing!!:shrug:

:asian:

Too Right Dennis,

A number of years ago I put together a "basic" self defense course for jailers/warders at one of our state prisons. Went and demonstrated, gave them the outline, course syllabus, etc. It was rejected as being "politically incorrect".

Which kind of makes me wonder why Robbo thought I was being sarcastic about the "Gun thing"! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

 

[Goldendragon7]

Im at a loss!