Can Kenpoists achieve "Mushin" aka the state of "mind of no mind"?

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Another thread recently wandered off topic and started debating the conept of "Mushin" or "mind of no mind". Do you think this is possible or that it exists? Do you think Kenpoists can achieve this state? Even if you don't buy the classical theory, can you correlate it to phases or levels in Kenpo training?

I first heard of this concept about 30 years ago. This is what I learned at the time... The idea is that martial artists and others progress through several phases of reactive consciousness in the course of their training.

First is the "Earth" phase. The untrained fighter would freeze when attacked. The trained martial artist would hold their position in a solid stance blocking attacks and countering from a stable position. Not advancing and not retreating.

Second is the "Water" phase. The untrained fighter would flee. The trained fighter would move constantly becoming an elusive target and countering from ever-changing positions.

Third is the "Fire" phase. A fighter will fight vigorously attacking with flurries of techniques.

"Wind" is the penultimate phase. A fighter will use the mind and create and utilize a strategic advantage or technique to outwit and defeat the opponent.

Fifth is the "Mind of no Mind" or "Mushin" is the ultimate phase. The fighter has no preconceived plan and can spontaneously and effortlessly react from any of the four previous phases.

Personally, I don't think there is any mystical mumbo jumbo in this classical analysis. I do think this is a decent analysis of possible reactions. I do think that spontaneous reaction tailored to the situation is the goal of Kenpo and other martial arts training.

 

[clapping_tiger]

I think so. Although I have not even come close to acheiving this, it is my ultimate goal. That is why I have Mushin under my name. I have experienced it in a small way, I think we all have at some point. When doing a drill, or messing around with a buddy. You seem to know excatly where the attack will be coming from. And without thinking and with what seems like little effort, you are always one step ahead of the person. There was one time when one of my fellow Black Belts walked by me and out of the blue turned and started punching and kicking at me. I blocked every shot, about 5 or six shots, without thinking about it, it just happened.

 

[MJS]

Sure, I believe that it is possible. The Sd techs. that we have, are IMO, a base to give the new student something to work from. Eventually, they should not rely on those set techs. but rather react to the situation at hand. It is impossible to know what you would do in a given situation. You could have the same attack thrown at you 2 times, and you'll probably react in a different way each time. We all know how to block, punch, kick, move, evade, etc. It just a matter of doing all of this w/o thinking about it. Do you have to think about how to tie your shoes, brush your teeth, start your car, etc? No, of course not. Why? Because we have been doing it sooo long it comes natural to us. The same can be said for the arts.

Mike

 

[Rob Broad]

Isn't that the goal of everyone in every art. To be able to react with out thought.

 

[pete]

anything less than that would be transmitting too much information to your opponent, and ultimately put you at a disadvantage. the essense of the martial arts is to internalize the motion learned from your training so that your defenses and subsequent counter attacks flow without a preconceived plan. of course, we must all train diligently in our chosen style to get there.

 

[Rob Broad]

If you do not get bogged down into traditionalizing kenpo, and follow the art with its original intent, you will be able achieve Mushin.

 

[Basicman]

I think anyone can develop this and I do not feel it is just limited to martial arts. Look at pianist. They have to practice countless hours to become "good". Swimmers are the same way, learning form for strokes improves effencicy and speed. I think that this can take place in anything in life as long as you train your nervous system.

Take care -- John

 

[RCastillo]

Of course it's very possible. It happens to me when my "buttons are pushed." I'm serious!:asian:

Now, If I could only be like that all the time!

 

[Brother John]

I have this book on it:
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, By Mihaly

Just found a follow up I think I'll get:
Flow in Sports, By Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Susan A. Jackson

In the Japanese martial arts where this term is used (it's a zen term, much borrowed by martial artists...and for good reason) see this as something than ANYONE can achieve... priests, artisans, warriors....housecleaning.
The direct interpretation "No-Mind" can be cumbersome to the western mind though. I really like how Mihaly puts it.
Good stuff.

Your Brother
John

 

[Kenpomachine]

If what i think mushin is, I have reached it seldom. For me, it was like being concentrated on the task at hand, while detached from it, aware of what's happening around you, but only "hearing" what can be of inmediate use. It's a curious state, niether similar to driving a car, nor even to dinamic meditation (meditating while doing a form, i.e.)

After looking back to the situation, it's all in a kind of fuzzy cloud.

That's been my experience with mushin insofar.

 

[Seig]

Let me counter a question with a question. Have you ever been sparring with one student, corrected another, avoided someone else who was sparring, and answered someone else's question, all without getting hit? I think most instructors that have been around a while can answer this in the affirmative......

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Yes! And I took a cell-phone call at the same time!

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by Basicman
I think anyone can develop this and I do not feel it is just limited to martial arts. Look at pianist. They have to practice countless hours to become "good". Swimmers are the same way, learning form for strokes improves effencicy and speed. I think that this can take place in anything in life as long as you train your nervous system.

Take care -- John

I agree, and you don't have to limit it to sports, or combat. From what I have read anytime you can preform a "complexe" task without having to think about it, you have acheived Mushin, for that task. How many of us can type what we are thinking without even realizing your fingers are finding the right keys, for the most part. Or driving, think about all you are doing at one time, and you no longer have to think about it. But I think acheiving Mushin in combat, is a little bit more difficult. You have the fear factor to overcome first to be able to let your mind go.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Do you think Kenpoists can achieve this state?

That all depends on how you train. We can all touch on this phase, but to sustain that phase, while in a high stress situation, can be another thing.

Playing the piano or typing on a keyboard is fine. With enough practice, one can do that with out thought. So what happens if while you are typing you get an electrical shock every time you mizpel a wrd....ouch. You may become more careful and start thinking before those fingers move again.

The same can be said with your training. If anyone thinks that constantly training in a friendly, stress free, happily practicing you techs and forms, and doing some very light point sparring, will prepare you for the day when your life, or a loved ones, is in danger...anyway, you get my drift.

My point is proper training is the key. With it, your odds of achieving "Mushin" when you really need it can improve dramatically.

 

[TIGER DRAGON FIGHT]

i have not achieve this state but i do believe you can. i do beleive you can go to a place where anything that comes at you where its physical or mental that without reacting conciously you act subconciously to the moment and it just feels right. no matter what you do, you are free of restrictive thought, that you act only when it is time, like the dragon "rides the wind":jedi1:

 

[Michael Billings]

YES!

And it is is summed up by White Belts getting dirty from sweat and work until they are Brown. You are then in your Brown Belt an equal amount of time as it took you to get Brown (or should be), then your get to really start learning at Black Belt. Eventually your Black Belt turns white again, through training, maturity and discipline. You learn so much and train so hard (and in Kenpo it is nice to bring the mind along with training the body ... but not always required), so that eventually you can forget it all and just react, without thought, without malice, and maybe with little emotion (until it is over).

Mushin, no mind, reacting and not thinking, or mind "like the moon" reflecting back all, or "like water" without a ripple. Wow - I must be tired to actually be articulating this stuff I usually keep quiet about. Think of it as a different framework, or paradigm in which to analyze things, rather than as anything new, or too classical. We hopefully do acheive Mushin, even if we do not call it that. Train something so many times that when we need it, it is not a thought about action, in fact there is not thought, just action ... a response to another's actions.

(I am so full of it sometimes - or at least I know better than to talk about it)
-Michael

 

[hedgehogey]

I believe no-mind to be best achieved through alive training. After all, why learn dead patterns to achieve spontaneity in the first place? Why not be spontaneous from the beggining?

I've briefly experienced mushin in muay thai and grappling. Once, I threw a thai kick, which was caught. Apperantly I jumped over my own caught leg (possibly a flip, but not high at all), somehow used the momentum to entangle my opponent's leg and whipped his knee down to end up doing a half boston crab. The description sounds silly, but i'm reconstructing here. At the time, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't think about it.

Or a triangle I slapped on a much bigger newbie who was passing my guard. I didn't think about it. I just put it on.

I hope to have more of these moments soon, but I won't seek the out, because when you seek it you don't find it, as we all know.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

yes. But I think it's easier to learn in fencing, then to transition it to kenpo.

 

[KenpoDave]

Since the introduction of message boards, I have seen kenpo topics analyzed and over-analyzed until finally, the "paralysis of analysis" stage is reached.

So, yes, kenpoists can achieve a state of no mind. :btg:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Since the introduction of message boards, I have seen kenpo topics analyzed and over-analyzed until finally, the "paralysis of analysis" stage is reached.

So, yes, kenpoists can achieve a state of no mind. :btg:

:rofl: