kata?

Steve

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Not all, apparently. Also teach typing skills (although I think I'm aging myself using that term). Both starting in second grade. Frankly, my opinion is that the keyboarding is more useful and worthwhile. If cursive goes away, I'm not getting too worked up about it. Im 100% sure that any cognitive benefits are not exclusive to cursive writing.
 

gpseymour

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Not all, apparently. Also teach typing skills (although I think I'm aging myself using that term). Both starting in second grade. Frankly, my opinion is that the keyboarding is more useful and worthwhile. If cursive goes away, I'm not getting too worked up about it. Im 100% sure that any cognitive benefits are not exclusive to cursive writing.
The cognitive benefit I mention is from taking notes by hand. It activates different areas of the brain, and requires a level of synthesis not needed when typing (because we generally type faster). Cursive is generally much faster than print, so someone without cursive will be very limited in their ability to take notes by hand.
 

Steve

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The cognitive benefit I mention is from taking notes by hand. It activates different areas of the brain, and requires a level of synthesis not needed when typing (because we generally type faster). Cursive is generally much faster than print, so someone without cursive will be very limited in their ability to take notes by hand.
there is something to be said for typing faster, or we wouldn't have had people proficient in shorthand before computers were widely available.

All,I can really say for sure is that my two adult kids learned it and never use it, and my 3rd grader is learning it and I suspect will also never really use it. Personally, I'm much more worked up when I hear about eliminating recess. That and school nutrition... at least here it is terrible what they feed the kids in the school provided lunches.
 

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there is something to be said for typing faster, or we wouldn't have had people proficient in shorthand before computers were widely available.

All,I can really say for sure is that my two adult kids learned it and never use it, and my 3rd grader is learning it and I suspect will also never really use it. Personally, I'm much more worked up when I hear about eliminating recess. That and school nutrition... at least here it is terrible what they feed the kids in the school provided lunches.
I agree on those last two points, Steve. As for kids never using cursive, how did they take notes? Most of my notes were part cursive, part print. If they can print fast enough, the cursive isn't necessary, but most of us are much faster with cursive. And the memory benefits of writing (even using shorthand) are significant. The benefits of having to synthesize because we can't write it all down (meaning not using shorthand) are also significant. There's definitely a need to be able to type fast, especially today. Notes on a computer are for reference. Notes by hand are for memory and reference. I actually teach business people to combine the two, so they have the computer notes for reference, and written note so they don't need the reference notes as often.

Wow, we are WAAAAY off-topic now, Steve!
 

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there is something to be said for typing faster, or we wouldn't have had people proficient in shorthand before computers were widely available.

All,I can really say for sure is that my two adult kids learned it and never use it, and my 3rd grader is learning it and I suspect will also never really use it. Personally, I'm much more worked up when I hear about eliminating recess. That and school nutrition... at least here it is terrible what they feed the kids in the school provided lunches.
I use cursive every day, tho admittedly it's often a mix of cursive and print.

I've seen reports that in education, the act of writing notes in class is more effective in retaining the information, than typing on a laptop in class. Of course writing could be cursive or printing.
 

Steve

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Ive never taken notes using the International Phonetic Alphabet, but probably because I've never learned it. I think more is made of this than the situation warrants, It's a few different things. 1. We tend to justify what we do, and dismiss what we don't. And 2. We like to wring our hands when our kids do things differently.

If you find it helpful to take notes by hand, I say more power to you. My experience is that many managers never use paper for notes and manage very well. The one benefit paper notes can have is in labor relations. if a manager keeps extensive jogger notes, keeping them electronically could cause problems.

Edit... to tie this back to my thoughts in kata, if you do them and find them helpful, more power to you. But we have ample evidence that kata (and paper notes) are one way to do things, but not better than many other ways to do the same things.
 

gpseymour

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Ive never taken notes using the International Phonetic Alphabet, but probably because I've never learned it. I think more is made of this than the situation warrants, It's a few different things. 1. We tend to justify what we do, and dismiss what we don't. And 2. We like to wring our hands when our kids do things differently.

If you find it helpful to take notes by hand, I say more power to you. My experience is that many managers never use paper for notes and manage very well. The one benefit paper notes can have is in labor relations. if a manager keeps extensive jogger notes, keeping them electronically could cause problems.

Edit... to tie this back to my thoughts in kata, if you do them and find them helpful, more power to you. But we have ample evidence that kata (and paper notes) are one way to do things, but not better than many other ways to do the same things.
I'm referring to actual research, not personal preference. I actually often prefer to take notes by typing, but have added handwriting back into my arsenal because of the benefit to memory. I do have some suspicion that part of the difference can be removed by changing how we take notes when typing (being more synthetic, as we tend to do when writing), but typing simply doesn't activate the same areas of the brain, so cannot have all the same benefits. At the same time, written notes (because of the synthesis) are less accurate as records, so typing is preferable for creating notes for future reference.
 

Steve

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I'm referring to actual research, not personal preference. I actually often prefer to take notes by typing, but have added handwriting back into my arsenal because of the benefit to memory. I do have some suspicion that part of the difference can be removed by changing how we take notes when typing (being more synthetic, as we tend to do when writing), but typing simply doesn't activate the same areas of the brain, so cannot have all the same benefits. At the same time, written notes (because of the synthesis) are less accurate as records, so typing is preferable for creating notes for future reference.
Yeah, but there are many successful people who never take a handwritten note. This idea of it being better for everyone, full stop, just Doesn't hold water. I've seen too much firsthand evidence to the contrary, from senior executives to brand new supervisors.

My opinion is that most of the benefits of taking notes are organizing them in a way that they make sense to you later, so that you can quickly identify action items and find information later when you need it. This is true whether you are doing it on paper or electronically.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be contrary, and I'm sure you're right for some people. Maybe even most. But I think human beings are too complex for absolute statements. Can cursive or hand writing notes be good for some people? Of course. Does it make a difference for everyone. I don't buy it, and have seen too many examples where people are far more productive using technology.

I think there are issues with memory but tend to agree more with the research on that which points to the trend now to google everything, and undervalueing actually remembering facts and information. I think it's more how we've become used to just pulling out our phones and asking Siri to answer every question, regardless of how mundane. In other words, it's an issue, but what causes it and how to mitigate it is at least open to some debate.
 
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I'm referring to actual research, not personal preference. I actually often prefer to take notes by typing, but have added handwriting back into my arsenal because of the benefit to memory. I do have some suspicion that part of the difference can be removed by changing how we take notes when typing (being more synthetic, as we tend to do when writing), but typing simply doesn't activate the same areas of the brain, so cannot have all the same benefits. At the same time, written notes (because of the synthesis) are less accurate as records, so typing is preferable for creating notes for future reference.

I think you're over stating the case. Lots of people benefit from note taking, but it's hardly universal.
I've gone through High School, College, Grad School and countless hours of continuing education with excellent grades, and I take no notes. None. Ever. If I take notes, the words go in my ears and out my hand without ever stopping in my brain.
 

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I think you're over stating the case. Lots of people benefit from note taking, but it's hardly universal.
I've gone through High School, College, Grad School and countless hours of continuing education with excellent grades, and I take no notes. None. Ever. If I take notes, the words go in my ears and out my hand without ever stopping in my brain.
Nothing is entirely universal when we are talking about the brain. We can only talk in commonalities. Besides that, your experience shows that you didn't need notes, not that you wouldn't have benefited from them. Perhaps you'd have retained more if you had taken notes, but you didn't need to retain more, so it wouldn't have been a useful addition. I never did homework, and learned quite well, but there's ample evidence that homework - properly used - has a benefit on learning.

EDIT: I re-read your post and my reply, and apparently I forgot part of your post while replying. You may, in fact, be one of those for whom the activity of taking notes takes you away from the topic. It is possible you would have benefited from a different approach to note-taking, but that would be a guess, and it's at least as likely that you wouldn't.
 

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Nothing is entirely universal when we are talking about the brain. We can only talk in commonalities. Besides that, your experience shows that you didn't need notes, not that you wouldn't have benefited from them. Perhaps you'd have retained more if you had taken notes, but you didn't need to retain more, so it wouldn't have been a useful addition. I never did homework, and learned quite well, but there's ample evidence that homework - properly used - has a benefit on learning.

EDIT: I re-read your post and my reply, and apparently I forgot part of your post while replying. You may, in fact, be one of those for whom the activity of taking notes takes you away from the topic. It is possible you would have benefited from a different approach to note-taking, but that would be a guess, and it's at least as likely that you wouldn't.
Funny that you mention homework, because there are entire learning models which have found that homework, not to be confused with independent work, is of little value for many reasons. This is the foundation of a reverse classroom, and the variations of it that have been emergeing over the last several years.
 

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Funny that you mention homework, because there are entire learning models which have found that homework, not to be confused with independent work, is of little value for many reasons. This is the foundation of a reverse classroom, and the variations of it that have been emergeing over the last several years.
That was why I said "properly used". There are a lot of ways homework can be useless, and a few that appear to actually help. I'm always behind on reviewing those studies, since I don't teach in a school system, but it sounds like it may be time for another visit to that topic.
 

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That was why I said "properly used". There are a lot of ways homework can be useless, and a few that appear to actually help. I'm always behind on reviewing those studies, since I don't teach in a school system, but it sounds like it may be time for another visit to that topic.
Used properly is pretty hard to nail down. It can range anywhere from redefining the term "homework" completely, to advocating it isn't assigned at all, to advocating it be assigned nightly to reinforce the day's instruction in a traditional sense.
 

gpseymour

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Used properly is pretty hard to nail down. It can range anywhere from redefining the term "homework" completely, to advocating it isn't assigned at all, to advocating it be assigned nightly to reinforce the day's instruction in a traditional sense.
Fair enough. When I said "used properly" I should perhaps have said "used effectively".
 

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