Michael Jai White shows effectiveness of kata in movie

Kenpoguy123

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This is from his latest movie never back down 3 and this fight scene shows him visualising himself doing a kata and being able to use those same moves on an opponent which shows what katas for. I think the whole movie is jai white showing traditional martial art effectiveness in mma. There's another scene I can't post the clip here but it's on his facebook page of him training 2 kids and he watches them hitting the bag and says they don't know how to properly hit it because the gloves protect their hands so the get into bad habits and he teaches them how to punch with the top 2 knuckles.

Also I know jai whites main style he uses is kyoshikin karate and I don't know if he's actually doing a real kata in that movie or if it's just a sequence he made himself for the movie. But I think jai whites the best martial art actor right now.

I'll say this. Jai white shows katas effectiveness a lot better than Daniel in karate kid 3 lol.


Edit: I actually found the punching video as well it's cool to see traditional martial arts shown these days along side mma in movies
 
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ShawnP

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ya its an ok, soso, "movie" scene, doubt you can or will ever produce an actual MMA fight like this....i certainly would love to see it.
 
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Kenpoguy123

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ya its an ok, soso, "movie" scene, doubt you can or will ever produce an actual MMA fight like this....i certainly would love to see it.
No I doubt it would work exactly like that but what it's showing is because of his kata training he can just react instinctively with those moves and put it all together.
 

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Gun kata.

images
 

Buka

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I'm such a sucker for fight scenes. I liked both clips. I know he was the director, but makes me wonder if he wrote those two scenes.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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this fight scene shows him visualising himself doing a kata and being able to use those same moves on an opponent which shows what katas for.
There is a problem when you apply this approach. The following form clip shows a

- right kick,
- left downward block,
- right punch.

What if when you throw a right kick, your opponent left hook punches at your head? Your left hand downward block will not work for that situation. That mean after your right kick, you have to consider

- down block,
- upward block,
- inside out block,
- outside in block,
- ...

If you have to train all possibilities, you are not training form, you are training drills instead.

 

Dirty Dog

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What if when you throw a right kick, your opponent left hook punches at your head? Your left hand downward block will not work for that situation. That mean after your right kick, you have to consider

When you throw the right kick, position your body and arms so that their best option is to attack where you want them to attack. That's the counter-strikers credo. Create the opening that you want them to attack, because that makes your counter sooooo much easier.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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When you throw the right kick, position your body and arms so that their best option is to attack where you want them to attack. That's the counter-strikers credo. Create the opening that you want them to attack, because that makes your counter sooooo much easier.
Agree!

It depends on where you may land your rooting foot. If you kick from an angle that your opponent's back hand can't reach you, you only need to deal with his leading hand, you can cut down your opponent's possibility respond in half.
 

Chris Parker

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Yeah… so, I'm going to be the nay-sayer here…

This is from his latest movie never back down 3 and this fight scene shows him visualising himself doing a kata and being able to use those same moves on an opponent which shows what katas for.

First off, it's not a kata. It's simply a forced choreography shoe-horned in for dramatic effect in a movie… and, honestly, leaves me rather flat. Next, kata (imagining for a moment that that's what it was…) is not about techniques… you're simply not meant to use "those same moves"… so no, it's showing a false, rather beginner, superficial and surface impression of "using the kata". Thirdly, it's a rather flawed and unimpressive demonstration of a failed understanding, to my mind, on a number of levels… but we'll get to that with the clip itself.

I think the whole movie is jai white showing traditional martial art effectiveness in mma.

By having a rather exaggerated, and stilted choreography that doesn't actually resemble anything like an actual MMA bout, or having any evidence that what is presented as "traditional martial arts" work without the other guy following your script? Sorry, no…

There's another scene I can't post the clip here but it's on his facebook page of him training 2 kids and he watches them hitting the bag and says they don't know how to properly hit it because the gloves protect their hands so the get into bad habits and he teaches them how to punch with the top 2 knuckles.

Blunt honesty here… I cringed when I saw that clip…

Also I know jai whites main style he uses is kyoshikin karate and I don't know if he's actually doing a real kata in that movie or if it's just a sequence he made himself for the movie. But I think jai whites the best martial art actor right now.

As it has no hallmarks that I'd look for in a genuine kata, and suffers from a range of flaws (if looking at it as one), I'm going to say it's made up for the film…

I'll say this. Jai white shows katas effectiveness a lot better than Daniel in karate kid 3 lol.

Actually, I prefer the way it's shown in Karate Kid 3… while ostensibly it's shown as a method for Daniel to use a "technique" to beat his latest Cobra Kai nemesis, what it's really demonstrating is Daniel's new-found ability (through kata) to improve his focus, mushin, and engagement in the moment. After all, kata aren't about techniques… which is the way it's implied with White.


To clarify my comments, might as well take a look at the clip itself, and identify what I'm seeing here…

Well, let's start with the opponent… runs across the ring to Michael with an overly telegraphed and easily avoided slow flying knee? Yeah… okay… oh my god, Michael got out of the way! Where'd he go now?

From there, we get into the "slipping punches" sequence… and, honestly, neither look particularly good… the opponent has no movement at all, simply throwing punches (arms only) from pretty well out of range… yeah, I get that things need to be seen by the audience for a dramatic effect, but come on… and Michael just keeping his feet stuck in the ground (no actual evasive body movement… still, there was no actual offensive body movement from his supposed attacker, so I guess okay?), just moving his head and shoulders to not get hit by the punches that likely wouldn't have reached him anyway… but, if in an actual sparring bout or MMA match would have seen him get over-run pretty damn quick.

Continue the same against kicks as well… slipping punches that aren't there and so on… until we get some rather odd counter-kick deflections… hmm… rather open for being punched in the face there Michael, particularly on the second one…

Now we get to it. A rather bizarre "traditional" posture, completely ill-suited to an MMA match, and Michael just stands still. Uh… huh? Ah, he's remembering his "kata"… look, it's just bad, okay? The "kata" obviously came after the choreography for the "fight", as Michael is almost painfully trying to match the actions in solo form… leading to stifled action (that first kick in his first "kata" memory is completely held back, as his sense of the distance without a partner simply isn't there), unrealistic action (a plum-grip to swing the opponent to the other side of your body, but allowing him to maintain balance completely so you can apply an elbow? Nope…), and martial art kung-fu movie-fu cliche's (the double palm to the chest and abdomen? Is he channeling JCVD here? The double punch down that visibly doesn't reach far enough down to actually have an effect, as Michael isn't low enough to get any real penetration or power).

Yeah… not something I'm fond of…

Edit: I actually found the punching video as well it's cool to see traditional martial arts shown these days along side mma in movies

Yeah… these scenes are about showing that the mentor/hero has some kind of special insight/knowledge/skill that sets them apart (and above) from others… and, honestly, it's fairly badly done as well. There's the typical cliches, including ripping off Kano Jigoro, and giving incredibly basic instruction (make sure your distance is right… the boys practically treat that like it's the most amazing advice given) is coupled with a new element here… the addition of a way to demonstrate that Michael is "down to earth"… by having him stop the boys applaud him.

And if I hear anyone say "in martial arts, we do xyz", it tells me immediately that they have an incredibly limited and blinkered grasp of what martial arts (as a whole) actually entail… so I stop listening to them try to offer advice, as they don't have the requisite experience to give it.

The only thing close to traditional martial arts is the choice of particular strikes for the makiwara at the end… telling them to do some conditioning after first having them hurt themselves… yeah, get the hell out of that school, the coach has little appreciation for how to instruct safely… but even then, it's almost purely tokenistic.

No I doubt it would work exactly like that but what it's showing is because of his kata training he can just react instinctively with those moves and put it all together.

Er… no, it doesn't. It shows that, with a choreographer, and a co-star/actor who knows the choreography, he can memorise a sequence for a camera. There is no indication whatsoever that Michael can "just react instinctively with those moves and put it all together". Note, I'm not saying he can't… just that there is no evidence here at all. You might as well say that a musician can instinctively write and perform Stairway to Heaven because you heard them play it once with a band.

Look, if you want to watch this film as an escapist fantasy, or for fun, or inspiration, or anything else, go for it. If you want to discuss how awesome you think it is, or how Michael Jai White is the best martial art-based actor since Jet Li, have at it. I'd just suggest that the Locker Room is more suited to that… if such a discussion ends up here, in the General Martial Arts area, I'm going to treat it as a martial arts discussion… and, in that sense, it was just bad. On many levels.

There is a problem when you apply this approach. The following form clip shows a

- right kick,
- left downward block,
- right punch.

What if when you throw a right kick, your opponent left hook punches at your head? Your left hand downward block will not work for that situation. That mean after your right kick, you have to consider

- down block,
- upward block,
- inside out block,
- outside in block,
- …

Frankly, that's only a problem if you can't see past the most basic, superficial idea that a kata is just a particular sequence of movements, immutable from that form, and must always be followed in that way without deviation. Additionally, no, it's not a problem if you actually know what you're doing with that kick… for one thing, if I'm throwing that kick, I'm not in range for a left hook… so who cares? But the main point is that your idea is based primarily on your lack of being able to see past the most surface understanding of any of this.

If you have to train all possibilities, you are not training form, you are training drills instead.

Er… huh? Nope. If you have to train all possibilities, you don't understand kata, form, training, or reality anywhere near well enough. Additionally, such ideas can be covered in drills, forms, scenario training, thought experiments, and far more… so… no. Again.


Yep, certainly looks like (part of) a form to me…
 

JowGaWolf

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I'm not impressed in terms of the effectiveness of kata. At the most it only shows possible application of technique. My assumption is that Michael Jai White is proud of his martial arts so he probably didn't want to lie about the application of the technique.

Actually being able to apply technique in real world application is really difficult and it takes time to get even some of the easier techniques and all of that learning and failing while applying technique is what will help make the technique actually effective. From my own experience a student will always be ineffective with technique before becoming effective with technique.
 

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Chopsocky movies rarely have anything realistic in them. And their main target audience really isn't Martial Artists, who are a sub set. But Chris is probably right, might have been better in The Locker Room section.

Chopsocky movies....ain't they somethin'!
 

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It's a movie designed to entertain the ufc fanboys and to ride the current mma craze. It's not going to be a goldmine of anything special.
 

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"I'll say this. Jai white shows katas effectiveness a lot better than Daniel in karate kid 3 lol."

The 2 Best things about the Karate Kid movies were:

1) Pat Morita's playing Mr. Miyagi, with his sayings, e.g. "Best way block punch... you no be there."; and

2) Hillary Swank's rear end in panties in Karate Kid 4.
 

elder999

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"I'll say this. Jai white shows katas effectiveness a lot better than Daniel in karate kid 3 lol."

The 2 Best things about the Karate Kid movies were:

1) Pat Morita's playing Mr. Miyagi, with his sayings, e.g. "Best way block punch... you no be there."; and

2) Hillary Swank's rear end in panties in Karate Kid 4.
I gotta disagree-the first movie was a nice little movie about friendship.....
 
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