Kata Judging for Tournaments

[sifu Adams]

I have been to seval tournament and have seen many differnt styles and blackbelts. Some good, some bad, some amazing. However when watching the Olymics Gymnastics I wonderd why martial art Katas are not shown in the Olymics. After asking around many instuctors said that the first thing MA would have to do is develop a scoring system that all styles could be judged by. So I ask the question what 1/2 point or .2 points off for if you were judging mixed styles and do you think we as Martial arts could come up with a common system?

 

[Maltair]

I would have to say that watching someones base would be a good portion of point value. A loss of balance or having to stutter step to get your base back under you. Also the intensity of strikes could be judged. Give each strike a ranking from 1-10 based on intensity and percieved affectiveness. Thats the hard part, percieved. Gymnastics doesn't have different styles, there is only one way to land a roundoff back handspring double twisting layout.:wink:

 

[sifu Adams]

I agree with the base, stance, and power. I was thinking in the terms of three judges. One for footwork and balance, one for power and difficalty, and one to judge how realistic.

 

[TigerWoman]

We just had an open tournament. Since I have become a judge, I too wish uniformity of criteria when judging forms. A nice checklist would be great. I was judging at a panel for black belt forms last Saturday. We had two Kung fu, 3 Karate, and the rest Taekwondo. In Kung fu, they seem to value fluid movement, balance, control, quick but high kicks. The karate guys like a show of tension-power, tumbling, loud kiaps, noise, spinning kicks . I think those two were made up forms. The Taekwondo like precise moves, high held kicks, long low stances, snapping hands and feet, power. It was difficult to judge. It was close to a three way tie for first with 6 judges except one judge gave his favorite an extra quarter point. Karate 1st, TKD 2nd, and Kung Fu third.

Then there are other details which have been part of judging. How the competitor addresses the judges. If she/he doesn't back up but turns around to go to position to start. Or whether he gets too close to judges table during the form. Or does a small error like a longer pause outweigh the power shown. How do you score points off for an obvious slip in the form? How do you score someone who has great power, noise, stances but lousy kicks or a lack of any kicks? Should a Kung Fu guy who had great form but not a "held" (at extension for a second)but high sidekick be penalized?

Then there is the favoritism which I really can't stand. The black belts that come with their students want them to have a good experience so invariably vote their way. Besides they don't have the same value system as everyone on the judging panel. Then if they vote last, as was the perogative of a 4th deg. he decided the vote by adjusting his score.

So how would a set of critieria be fair to all types of art? TW

 

[sifu Adams]

I have judged for seval years. I have seen all the favortism ect... but I have also learned a lot. I teach a kung fu style and most don't understand what we do and most of us don't understand others. That's why I posted the question. I think there is a way but it would take all styles to help create it. when I judge do not take off if the student dose not bow, or give a better score to the one who yells the loundest. I start by looking for the confidence in the form and in the student themselfs. when the student approches they don't have to yell at me but they should not be afriad of me eather. When they do the form they should do each move like they are "showing off". I then look for the stance. I believe and someone correct me if I am wrong, but all martial arts should have a strong, solid stance. Low, high dose not matter. I would take a point off if your legs look like you were relaxed and just standing around during your form. From there i go to the power. Kung Fu power is differnt than most. Alot of styles like to see the power all the why thru the punch or kick. (they are tense all the way) in kungfu we allow the power to flow thru the body and release it at the end of the hit or kick. I would ask you two thing. what should I look for in your TKD form and what did you dislike about the kung fu that you gave a low score to?

As for the last judge adjusting the score. I would never go back to that tournament. We always have all judges score at the same time. maybe I missed something in the way you explained that.

 

[bignick]

the way we've been doing forms at our tournaments...and we're only tkd...no other styles...is that we have students going head to head and we just pick the person we think did the best...basically it is set up in brackets just like the sparring competition

this tournament was my first time judging and i liked it better than the point system that we usually do, it made it easier for me, because we had students from other schools doing taeguks while we do palgwe's....and i may not know taeguks...but watching two people doing them side by side, it is a lot easier to see who was better...

it changes how we do it from tournament to tournament...

 

[sifu Adams]

Did you have both competitors do their form and the same time? that's differnt that might be soming to build off of. I have forms (kungfu) that would extend past the ring so I don't know if that would work or not at the same time. but putting them in a bracket maybe. how long did it take?

 

[bignick]

Did you have both competitors do their form and the same time? that's differnt that might be soming to build off of. I have forms (kungfu) that would extend past the ring so I don't know if that would work or not at the same time. but putting them in a bracket maybe. how long did it take?

yeah...they did them at the same time and it didn't take very long because it was a pretty small tournament

 

[sifu Adams]

I have 200-250 comming to my tournament in Nov. I what do you look for in a form?

 

[TigerWoman]

Actually I argued for the Kung Fu, second competitor, I judged him the highest over the TKD guy who actually did his form extremely well. But I was impressed with the control, the flow and the way he used his body. But I was outnumbered on that one. I talked with that person a while after, and told him How I had admired his form. He thanked me because he feels his art form is not understood,nor valued. Actually I told him that my second dan in TKD daughter is now starting to study Kung Fu as she apparently appreciated it too. The competitor told me my master told him his kicks should be held for a second. I disagree with that in KF as it would interrupt his flow and I could see that it without him telling me. I'm glad I talked with him otherwise he said he would have been discouraged to come again.

For Taekwondo, our regular BB form Koryo, is not a particularly flashy form compared to tumbling combined with high jumped spinning kick integrated in a form. Competition forms for TKD have gone that way. For us older folks tumbling is not an option though. We value also a stable stance but more so a low long stance. Going from a high held kick to a low long stance and then out of it easily to the other side showing power. Our knife hands are snapped into position. We wear crisp uniforms just so the snap is heard in both hand motions and kicking. We value power in the strikes and kicks but also agility, balance and flexibility. A higher double sidekick held at apex will add major points. I also do the ITF black belt form, Kwang Gye and prefer it since it is a little harder and I think more interesting. But before all WTF judges it doesn't fly as well, I noticed. And my master pointed that out to me as well.

I learned very limited kiap at only a few strikes 2-3 during a form. But the ITF people yell alot and hiss too so my master is teaching all to say POW at every strike. He says that is a Korean word but can't find it or anything similar. I think of Batman, an old 60's cartoon, so I can't say pow with a straight face. So I get hurt with just two or three kiaps in my forms as well. It just gets to be a bit much with every strike.

As for the judge who wanted to be last, I tried respectfully to get his score first (he was on the end) and was a stranger to me but he would not offer it until the rest were scored. We get a different mix of judges and competitors at every tournament.

I just want to be fair to everyone and set aside partiality and have a one set of criteria. I was only told to judge on power since that is universal across the arts but still it is interpreted differently-soft style vs hard style.
I think that has to be a consideration. We also need more Kung Fu judges to let us know what mistakes were done and vice versa with TKD. An open sharing of information instead of a closed individual decision without qualifying it.

You made me think more about this and it happens every tournament. I even tried once to put a grading sheet together but it was nixed by the master. But tomorrow is our monthly BB class and I would like to bring up the subject again. TW

 

[TigerWoman]

Sometimes we do that too--put two competitors side by side to do their forms, particularly children or those that we know the boundaries of their forms. It usually works in one ring. However, this time, it was small enough (maybe the rest went to Bignick's tournament since it was the same day!) so we had them perform individually. TW

 

[TigerWoman]

Some more stuff to look for: Face forward, not looking down. Strong strikes with power. Strong blocks, front kick-toes bent back-high & held. After a kick the leg retracts back in a loose tuck before going down to stance - usually just higher belts will learn that. Also hands/arms are crossed in front of the chest before striking or blocking. The back leg is straight in a long stance the front leg is 90 degrees to the floor. The long stance/legs are also a shoulder and half apart, like a railroad track going between the legs. Heels on the ground in stances, but not during kicking. High held kicks and power shown with snapping and ease of movement.
Hope that helps. TW

 

[sifu Adams]

That is interesting. I teach a traditional style of kung fu. We were kGi's and we like that snap at the end of the punch as well. more info about Kung fu. well let me try to give you a answer. We are based around anamial. each anamial has a differnt threoy. the tiger should be power. not speed POWER. a tiger is strong and the student should show that. ( I tell my student they look like kittens most of the time, just to fire them up) The monkey has ajillity (he can move) he also draws his oppont and the hits should be like a slap more than a closed fist punch. I could go on in need but I think you have the hint. Most of the time when we go to open tournament My students wont to do the Drunken, birds, praying Mantis, ect. I push the tigers becuase we score higher do to the power that is showed. As for the Kick. no disrepect Why do you hold the kick. we hold it in tai chi and Yet Fay (strengh training) but it looks like that would slow your return of your kick down?

 

[sifu Adams]

Some more stuff to look for: Face forward, not looking down. Strong strikes with power. Strong blocks, front kick-toes bent back-high & held. After a kick the leg retracts back in a loose tuck before going down to stance - usually just higher belts will learn that. Also hands/arms are crossed in front of the chest before striking or blocking. The back leg is straight in a long stance the front leg is 90 degrees to the floor. The long stance/legs are also a shoulder and half apart, like a railroad track going between the legs. Heels on the ground in stances, but not during kicking. High held kicks and power shown with snapping and ease of movement.
Hope that helps. TW

See we are not that far off

We look for:
Faceing the way to attacking, never look down, Kick with toes bent back (we don't look for that but I could work with it, I agree on it), Long stance and the transition to flow as you do a move yes. Hand/arms crossed in front we couldn't live with that. some times we will grab both arms pull them a part (to the sides) and kick to the stomic. the Soulder and a half apart? we have cat stances and most of the time we turn side ways.
I have printed you last threads out to study them more. I think we could be on to something.

 

[TigerWoman]

The high held kick really isn't for fighting but to demonstrate strength and flexibility and power when it is snapped out. It takes alot to hold a kick out especially if it is way over your head. Personally, I have been working at it eight years now and mine is to head level and my splits nearly down to the floor. To get higher, it still takes muscle conditioning to be able to use the flexibility from the splits to further hold it. TKD values that alot. Also the front kick all the way up.

Thanks for the explanation for the animals in your forms. What are the official names of the forms so I would know which animal is being performed?
TW

 

[sifu Adams]

That's a tuff question. We have three diffent birds in the system. example we have 18 Tai Pang (giant bird) forms, 3 Lo Tien (preforming Dove) forms, and 3 Pai Hur (white Crane) forms. I always tell my student to say the name then the anamial. I think all kung fu styles should do that.

 

[TigerWoman]

We have cat stances in the higher red belt form and also in the ITF forms.
Also have horseback- straddle stance-also supposed to be low. And backstance with the weight on the back leg. It is like horseback but the front foot is pointed to the side (which then becomes the front) while the other stays at 90° The long forward stance and the backstance are our main stances.

Its really like judging apples and oranges which are similar but not the same. We have to look at (1) good stances (2) good strikes and blocks (3) good power, along with (4) flow/tempo/agility/balance and (5) flexibility but take into account it is a different art and give some allowance for that (like held kicks vs flow).

Got to go find my old list that I made up...tomorrow. TW

 

[sifu Adams]

I am going to take a hard look at the exchanges and study them a little. I might throw some of the ideas out at my state tournament next week. I would like to talk about difficauty of techneques some in the futur. Later

 

[TigerWoman]

Yes,that would be helpful to say the name of the animal after the formal name. What type of Kung Fu do you do? I remember the young man I talked with (the competitor) said he did Shaolin and it was a northern style.
I know very little about Kung Fu but it does sound interesting. Actually my master who is a 5th dan in TKD, also likes Kung Fu and admires the work that it takes. Well, gotta go to sleep..please excuse me now. TW

 

[sifu Adams]

Chung Yin Shaolin kung fu under the direction of Master Hiang The' and Southern Praying mantis under GM Gin foon Mark.