still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Is Kata a part of your training?
Aloha,
Aloha,
Kata in Bruce Lee schools?
- Thread starter still learning
- Start date
No Kata. We do skill drills, attribute development drills, sparring. As noted before, we do not do Kata but there are Mook Jong Sets that some would call a form as well as those who work over WC forms such as Sil Lum Tao etc... KATA not really. Some JF/JKD practitioners may practice another systems forms to keep up on skills from another art to stay sharp, but no real JF/JKD katas. LOL. PEACE
The simple answer is no Katas are not taught within our school.
In addition as we are from a wing chun background the wing chun forms are also not taught.
I am aware of the orginal JKD wooden dummy form, which was taught to my sifu by Chris Kent back in the early 90s, however that is also not taught unless students want specfic training on this area.
In addition as we are from a wing chun background the wing chun forms are also not taught.
I am aware of the orginal JKD wooden dummy form, which was taught to my sifu by Chris Kent back in the early 90s, however that is also not taught unless students want specfic training on this area.
Glycerine0160
Orange Belt
I mean, I can see why Bruce didn't like forms.
But in my opinion, I see there application. It seems like a good way to work on technique and footwork by yourself. Although I wouldn't personally think a person needs to learn a form to excel to some new level, I see them as beneficial. Almost like a shadow boxing template (that I would think you could improvise on)
But in my opinion, I see there application. It seems like a good way to work on technique and footwork by yourself. Although I wouldn't personally think a person needs to learn a form to excel to some new level, I see them as beneficial. Almost like a shadow boxing template (that I would think you could improvise on)
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Thank-you for your answers.....Aloha
No kata and "some" will even say no drill sets. By that I mean, repetitive training yes but without "set in stone" drills. Thats the way Sifu Felix trained me. Every training day is differant, built upon what we've worked on but always differant.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Many martial arts started with some kind of Katas in there systems...today...things have change a bit..
Less traditional people training in the old ways...
...and less beliefs in the katas usefulness..
..and role models like Bruce Lee ....can set up New rules and beliefs for Kata training...and is widely believe in his studies...
Aloha, ...many times hard to get away from Katas too..
PS: many successful street fighters with NO ma backgrounds...hard to beat (learning to fight for real...means fighting for real...)
Pracitice in any sports...never the same when it is real or in the ring of life and death.
Less traditional people training in the old ways...
...and less beliefs in the katas usefulness..
..and role models like Bruce Lee ....can set up New rules and beliefs for Kata training...and is widely believe in his studies...
Aloha, ...many times hard to get away from Katas too..
PS: many successful street fighters with NO ma backgrounds...hard to beat (learning to fight for real...means fighting for real...)
Pracitice in any sports...never the same when it is real or in the ring of life and death.
khand50
Orange Belt
bruce lee was an exceptional forms person. he did practice the first form from wing chun, sil lum tao, and part of the second form, chum kiu, as he didnt learn it in it's entirety, and as much of the mook jong, or wooden man form as he learned. bruce didnt complete his wing chun training and missed out on the weapons sets, as far as i have seen in all the reading i have done over the years. he did learn forms from other systems as well. yes, he did teach the ung moon and some jkd instructors still teach it today. ron balicki is one such instructor and the form can be found on his 8 dvd series, jun fan jkd, beginner to apprentice level.
there came a time when people were saying forms were bad because they didnt truly listen to lee. he didnt say that they were useless as much as he stated that no one fights like that in real life. however, forms arent about teaching fighting as much as they are about teaching structure. to say that forms are all bad is to misunderstand the true nature of forms. there are disagreements on this point but i think a person should investigate this for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions.
in the beginning, forms are good to help students learn about physical structure, balance, movement and such things. do not see forms as a way to fighting. and do not make forms your end all be all, just as you shouldnt make sparring your end all be all. some people have taken sparring and placed way too much emphasis on it. it is yet another tool for personal development. but because lee placed heavy emphasis on it, others simply followed suit, which was the opposite thing lee was "preaching" in his philosophical approach to jkd. all the elements of training have importance.
i use a training drill for developing kicking and for exercise that is based upon an 8 point position. using numbers, i go clockwise in a circle around me. picture a + and an x shape superimposed on each other. kick front kick straight ahead. along the next line, which is a diagonal, perform a side kick. along the next line on the + , which would be "3", a back kick. repeat the pattern in a circle and you switch to the other leg afterwards. it is a moving kicking exercise that develops foot placement, kicking skills, looking skills, as you must look before you kick, and isnt too bad for an aeorbic exercise either. it isnt a fighting form. there isnt a form for fighting. which brings us back to the question about forms. no form works for fighting. it should only be for drilling. by the way, ive created variations for this kicking form to drill different kicks and combination kicks. ive been using this method for many years. recently i saw it being performed by a jkd instructor on one of the jun fan jkd annual seminar videos with all the original jkd 1st gens...
there came a time when people were saying forms were bad because they didnt truly listen to lee. he didnt say that they were useless as much as he stated that no one fights like that in real life. however, forms arent about teaching fighting as much as they are about teaching structure. to say that forms are all bad is to misunderstand the true nature of forms. there are disagreements on this point but i think a person should investigate this for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions.
in the beginning, forms are good to help students learn about physical structure, balance, movement and such things. do not see forms as a way to fighting. and do not make forms your end all be all, just as you shouldnt make sparring your end all be all. some people have taken sparring and placed way too much emphasis on it. it is yet another tool for personal development. but because lee placed heavy emphasis on it, others simply followed suit, which was the opposite thing lee was "preaching" in his philosophical approach to jkd. all the elements of training have importance.
i use a training drill for developing kicking and for exercise that is based upon an 8 point position. using numbers, i go clockwise in a circle around me. picture a + and an x shape superimposed on each other. kick front kick straight ahead. along the next line, which is a diagonal, perform a side kick. along the next line on the + , which would be "3", a back kick. repeat the pattern in a circle and you switch to the other leg afterwards. it is a moving kicking exercise that develops foot placement, kicking skills, looking skills, as you must look before you kick, and isnt too bad for an aeorbic exercise either. it isnt a fighting form. there isnt a form for fighting. which brings us back to the question about forms. no form works for fighting. it should only be for drilling. by the way, ive created variations for this kicking form to drill different kicks and combination kicks. ive been using this method for many years. recently i saw it being performed by a jkd instructor on one of the jun fan jkd annual seminar videos with all the original jkd 1st gens...
Tensei85
Master Black Belt
I know the post was a tad bit old, but I haven't heard of the Ung Moon form could you elaborate a little more on this? Thanks.
Could it be Ng Mun (5 Gates), just curious.
Thanks again,
khand50
Orange Belt
the ung moon form translates into "5 gates". it is from jun fan when lee was teaching earlier on. i personally dont know alot about the form. i saw something written about it on jkdtalk.com and later saw ron balicki performing it on his 8 dvd set, as previously mentioned. lee taught various forms in the beginning but later moved away from them. i know that he felt that forms were too limiting, in terms of relating to the opponent. but some of the original lee students as well as other jun fan jkd instructors seem to express the need for some of these forms. i dont see the problem with forms as long as the practitioner realizes that they are only a small part of the whole training program, as i stated before. i dont believe that any one aspect of training should be emphasized over another, if one wants to achieve a personal quality in their training.
for myself, i have created a list of 5 essential elements of training. they are:
solo drills
partner drills
conditioning
evnironmental awarenss
sparring
ive created sub categories for each element as well. but these are the five main elements of training. under solo drills i list pre planned and un planned forms. pre planned would be similiar to katas. un planned would be similiar to shadow boxing. there is a balance. using your creativity is important to your training and sense of aliveness. the same thing goes for the sparring element. limited and unlimited sparring. limited sparring suggests tool isolation for specific development. such, as hands vs feet, one hand vs both hands, defense vs all out offense, and so on.
its funny how some schools see kata as the ultimate training and yet, many people who practice kata havent probably done the research as to the origins of kata.
while training in an isshin ryu class last year, i got so involved in what they were doing that i purchased nearly every book on the art available. the research i did let me to purchasing books that traced the lineage of the okinawan arts back to the fukien provence and found the white crane style of kung fu as the main influence on okinawan karate. the material i read suggested, as well as flat out explained, that the okinawans learned the chinese forms but didnt learn the proper interperatation as they didnt understand the language or simply werent given the information. as a result, they found their own interperatation of the movements and thus altered the true meaning of the forms. the material i read suggested that the original forms were not the punching and blocking but were chin na based, used for grappling and throwing. done in kata or kuen form, these movements could easily be mistaken as various blocks or punches or even stomping kicks.
ultimately i think that forms can be useful for people to practice but not given over to be slaves to the forms. like bruce lee said about his art, it is like a boat. once you cross the river, discard the boat. but, as any traveller is aware of, there may be more rivers along the way. dont forget how to make another boat....
for myself, i have created a list of 5 essential elements of training. they are:
solo drills
partner drills
conditioning
evnironmental awarenss
sparring
ive created sub categories for each element as well. but these are the five main elements of training. under solo drills i list pre planned and un planned forms. pre planned would be similiar to katas. un planned would be similiar to shadow boxing. there is a balance. using your creativity is important to your training and sense of aliveness. the same thing goes for the sparring element. limited and unlimited sparring. limited sparring suggests tool isolation for specific development. such, as hands vs feet, one hand vs both hands, defense vs all out offense, and so on.
its funny how some schools see kata as the ultimate training and yet, many people who practice kata havent probably done the research as to the origins of kata.
while training in an isshin ryu class last year, i got so involved in what they were doing that i purchased nearly every book on the art available. the research i did let me to purchasing books that traced the lineage of the okinawan arts back to the fukien provence and found the white crane style of kung fu as the main influence on okinawan karate. the material i read suggested, as well as flat out explained, that the okinawans learned the chinese forms but didnt learn the proper interperatation as they didnt understand the language or simply werent given the information. as a result, they found their own interperatation of the movements and thus altered the true meaning of the forms. the material i read suggested that the original forms were not the punching and blocking but were chin na based, used for grappling and throwing. done in kata or kuen form, these movements could easily be mistaken as various blocks or punches or even stomping kicks.
ultimately i think that forms can be useful for people to practice but not given over to be slaves to the forms. like bruce lee said about his art, it is like a boat. once you cross the river, discard the boat. but, as any traveller is aware of, there may be more rivers along the way. dont forget how to make another boat....
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