Kata Critique

[_Simon_]

So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.

Yeah that's the thing... it's so hard to make comment on a kata from a different style, as we often don't have much of an idea of their training methods day-to-day in the dojo, and what they're trying to achieve specifically, so body mechanics and stances may be completely different...

Of course there are commonalities within karate styles but still alot of differences..

I compete in an all styles tournament, and watching the Chinese forms people do I always wonder... how do the judges even begin to score these types of forms compared with karate... I'd have no clue what they'd look for if they weren't familiar with the style, its vastly different!

They added a few others from other styles, such as the Mas Oyama created kata Garyu.

Wow really? Fancy that!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style?

You may not be able to just the correct technique, but you can always judge the correct body movement. It doesn't matter which style that you may train, there are some general guideline that all MA styles have to follow, such as:

- All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time.
- Your eyes will focus on your major hand.
- ...

It's always wrong when you

- step in and punch, if your legs stop moving but your arm is still moving.
- punch to the north but your eyes are looking toward the west (or east).
- ...

 

[dvcochran]

I'm sure all of the above is true.

But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.

Try and imagine a world where boxing tournaments included artistic speed ball drilling.

Tournament kata is time spent mastering non martial skills and it is ingraining incorrect performance of kata. Sure on an individual level obsess all you want over performance but my issue is the cultural impact that aesthetic kata performance has had on the art.

There are plenty of dance schools. If that's what you enjoy why go to a karate club to find it?

That is one of the more ridiculous comparisons I have heard. Sure there are a lot of bad tournament forms and approaches out there just like there are a plethora of "culturally correct" forms being taught that are no where close. Maybe you lost at your first tournament and never got over it? The best component about tournament forms is the competition with yourself. Not everyone can get there however.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I compete in an all styles tournament, and watching the Chinese forms people do I always wonder... how do the judges even begin to score these types of forms compared with karate... I'd have no clue what they'd look for if they weren't familiar with the style, its vastly different!

This guy won the 1st place form competition in the 1974 Dallas Karate tournament (I filmed this myself).

Apparently even by using Karate or TKD standard, his Chinese form was considered to be good.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah that's the thing... it's so hard to make comment on a kata from a different style, as we often don't have much of an idea of their training methods day-to-day in the dojo, and what they're trying to achieve specifically, so body mechanics and stances may be completely different...

Of course there are commonalities within karate styles but still alot of differences..

I compete in an all styles tournament, and watching the Chinese forms people do I always wonder... how do the judges even begin to score these types of forms compared with karate... I'd have no clue what they'd look for if they weren't familiar with the style, its vastly different!



Wow really? Fancy that!

Garyu and Useishi* from Kyokushin are allowed. Also most of the Uechi Ryu specific kata such as Kanchin, Kanshu, etc. None of these were previously allowed. Possibly done to appease the IOC, as it used to be Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu, and Wado Ryu kata only.

*Useishi is a Mas Oyama heavily modified Gojushiho. Some Kyokushin offshoots do it too, a few calling it Koryugojushiho (Seido and Oyama karate come to mind under that name). Useishi wasn’t allowed previously.

Complete kata list on page 28:
https://www.wkf.net/pdf/WKFCompetitionRules2017.pdf

 

[DaveB]

Kata, for me, is the soul of karate. It is the quest for perfection in movement. Doing kata exposes weaknesses in technique and gives a student the opportunity to focus their training to improve that aspect. Participating in kata during a tournament setting also gives a student the opportunity to see how they stack up against their peers.

That being said, in able to judge kata, you need to understand what the 'perfect' elements of the kata are to judge it accordingly, imho. Does that mean you cannot judge a kata you are unfamiliar with ? No, you should be able to see the depth in training that has gone into the performance and judge it according to your own criteria and experience of what constitutes a perfect kata but without understanding the frame of reference, your score may differ from someone who practices that kata regularly and knows exactly what is required to do the kata perfectly.

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Perfection of movement is one way to describe kata, but what perfection is will change with every form nevermind which style it is.

The first form you learn in Shotokan has two techniques, low block and punch. Yet in that form is a set rhythm for executing 3 stepping punches. It's the most commonly missed part of that form. How can someone unfamiliar judge it?

More importantly though if you are using the form correctly as a training tool, your rhythm and connectivity of the two techniques can vary all across the form, depending on what applications you are practising.
In which case, how can you judge the form? How do you apply a standard where the nature of the tool is that the standards change depending upon your understanding and focus?

The idea that kata performance is something that can be judged is precisely the cultural problem I was describing. The idea that you can compare yourself to others based on nonsensical ideas about how forms look totally defeats the purpose of training martial arts.

If you want to know how you compare with your peers, fight them.
The fight is where you judge technique. Not the form.

 

[DaveB]

That is one of the more ridiculous comparisons I have heard. Sure there are a lot of bad tournament forms and approaches out there just like there are a plethora of "culturally correct" forms being taught that are no where close. Maybe you lost at your first tournament and never got over it? The best component about tournament forms is the competition with yourself. Not everyone can get there however.

Wow, that went personal faster than I expected.

I came second at my first kata tournament, never bothered with it after that as I couldn't understand how I could be judged by people from other styles or vice versa.

Anyway, I came to this view many many years later when I realised how much time we spent learning to get kata "right", without knowing what the movements are for.

I realised that mastery of a form with set performance criteria severely limited the usefulness of a training tool that everyone was waffling about having near infinite combat applications.

I realised that there was no difference between the judging of a form and the judging of a dance since neither showed any combative understanding.

I realised that no boxer has a trophy for excellent shadow boxing, and that nobody goes to the ballet to watch the dancers stretch.

I realised that all the time we (karateka) focus on aesthetics we deserve the reputation for having ineffective martial arts training and that we limit our own effectiveness by misusing the tools we have been given.

So yeah, maybe my silver medal was too great a blow to my massive ego and I now must ruin kata comp for everyone, or maybe I just thought about it critically for a minute. You decide.

 

[Tez3]

You may not be able to just the correct technique, but you can always judge the correct body movement.

I disagree, I'm from Wado Ryu I can't judge CMA forms as I simply don't know their correct 'body movement' and I'd suggest it would be the other way around as well.

- All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time.
- Your eyes will focus on your major hand.
- ...

It's always wrong when you

- step in and punch, if your legs stop moving but your arm is still moving.
- punch to the north but your eyes are looking toward the west (or east).
- ...

So basically when judging a kata/form from another style this is all you have to go on and if they 'perform' your specifics the kata is good. The rest might be rubbish but as long as they do this it's fine?

 

[Yokozuna514]

If I may, I would suggest that 'judging katas' in a tournament setting will produce more consistent scores if the judges themselves have:

1) A good level of experience.
2) Know the levels of the art form being judged and what the standard should be applied.
3) Accept guidance instructions from the head judge.

Not being in the same art form may not give the judge a complete understanding of all the subtleties of the kata but a strong stance is still a strong stance, balance between transitions still shows a higher degree of body control, coordination of movements still shows the level of practice by the individual, the overall appearance of the kata compared to other katas seen previously (historical) can also play a factor. The head judge will also (hopefully) give an indication of the level of kata to be performed by the participant to the judges to help guide them with a starting score. For example, if I received instructions that the next participant would be performing 'X' mid level kata and is a mid level student, I would use a mid level starting score and apply deductions based on criteria from my own experiences. Would my score be as accurate as a similar judge from the same style who trained in the art ? Maybe not but I like to think that I wouldn't be in left field either.

If the student wanted their form to be judged by instructors of the same art, they may need to enter a tournament given solely by that art. However, often times, these types of tournament opportunities are not available without travelling great distances. So why compete in a tournament that has judges from other styles participating ? Tournaments are a test of the student's skills compared to those of his peer group. A wider peer group gives a better indication of the 'truth' of their training from an independent eye.

However, as in all things, the results of the 'test' should be taken with the understanding of the conditions that the test was applied. Thus, if you are doing a CMA and you enter in a karate kata tournament and win, hopefully it will give you an indication that your training is on track. If you lose, hopefully you will go back to your training hall and discuss it with your Sifu to see where improvements can be made. If your Sifu doesn't agree with the results perhaps you have to look at attending tournaments where your art is more understood.

My two cents

 

[Tez3]

a strong stance is still a strong stance

How would I know as a karateka what a strong stance is in CMA? How would non Wado Ryu people view our stances not knowing them?

coordination of movements still shows the level of practice by the individual,

If it's a kata/form I don't know how would I know the transitions are being made to the correct movements? We have a kata that has many elements of other katas in and the times I've seen the competitor mistakenly go off into another kata.

the overall appearance of the kata compared to other katas seen previously (historical) can also play a factor.

We have a range of katas that are unlike each other so watching one would not lead you to assume that all should be done the same way. There's a big difference between Pinan Shodan and Seishan for us.

Thus, if you are doing a CMA and you enter in a karate kata tournament and win, hopefully it will give you an indication that your training is on track.

I'm sorry but I don't follow that. How can you win a karate kata competition with a CMA form, how would karateka be able to judge it? ( and vice versa)

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think her performance is quite good. Definitely in line with what I’ve seen from Uechi Ryu practitioners. Uechi kata aren’t flashy at all; just simple and effective moves (if you know their application). I’ve been told there’s truly only one type of kick in Uechi, which is a front kick with the toes. Many dojos add roundhouse and a few other basic kicks, but I don’t think they’re part of the formal syllabus.

My only criticism of the kata is she should add a little more power to the techniques.

I liked it just from the opening... and by her comportment. Haven' watched the whole thing through.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Ok, you have obviously taken exception to a few things I have said. I am fine with that. I think it is pointless for us to go back and forth trying to prove our points. I can respect that that you may not agree and believe in the opposite view.

I will say given a situation where I am ask to judge a kata from another style, I will use my experience and common sense to provide a score. Will it be exactly the same score as a judge from the same style as the student performing, maybe not. However, I can take the opportunity after to ask the judge why they scored the kata they way they did so I can do a better job the next time I am faced with a similar situation. In judging as well as in kata, we strive for perfection even though we know we may never get there. Most judges are doing the best that they can but that doesn't mean that they always get it perfect. There is always more to learn even when we are asked to judge others.

As a participant, you are presenting yourself to be judged by the people that have been entrusted to do so. If you do not feel you are going to be judged accordingly you have the option to not perform. It's up to you to do with what you will given the opportunity.

 

[ShotoNoob]

No matter how good that you can do your form, if your form doesn't have "body method" and only have the arms movement, you still cannot express your "body method".

What is "body method"? You can only see the body move and you don't see the arms move. Can you do your form by putting your arms behind your back and just let your body to do your form?

If we use "body method" to judge MA styles, many MA style will fail to that standard. Not every MA styles design their form with "body method" in mind.

Example of "body method".

[vid omitted]

Never head karate body mechanics referred to like that before. Is this term something you personally coined?

 

[dvcochran]

Wow, that went personal faster than I expected.

***It went personal by your damning and narrow opinion. For those who understand, appreciate and desire competition a greater identification of what forms can be and be used for is found. The premise that there is a narrow, mystic purpose to forms and only one way is the right way is old school, outdated, and absurd to the thinking person.

I came second at my first kata tournament, never bothered with it after that as I couldn't understand how I could be judged by people from other styles or vice versa.
***You cannot give people of the same ilk the credit to think critically? If I do a "perfect" front stance middle punch and you do the same they will look different for many different reasons. A student, school or instructor who thinks they are supposed to conform everyone to such an extreme is diluted. You figured all this out with only one tournament?

Anyway, I came to this view many many years later when I realised how much time we spent learning to get kata "right", without knowing what the movements are for.

I realised that mastery of a form with set performance criteria severely limited the usefulness of a training tool that everyone was waffling about having near infinite combat applications.
***A valid statement. Ala, very much class time. Oh yea, if your class is unable to provide the understanding of a form, maybe that is where the problem lies . I encourage my students to explore and discover outside regular classes. I am not concerned that they may think another style or system is better because I do not advocate the idea. I really don't know your point on the last statement.

I realised that there was no difference between the judging of a form and the judging of a dance since neither showed any combative understanding.
***Wow. Tell that to the person doing either one. Forms are an elemental component of training. Because you do not understand the interpretation of a form, or a dance for that matter, does not summarily make it wrong. I have seen someone do a particular move and saw added value or effectiveness in how they did it. Especially moves that I may not be as gifted at as them.

I realised that no boxer has a trophy for excellent shadow boxing, and that nobody goes to the ballet to watch the dancers stretch.
***The hours and hours of shadow boxing is what allowed them to get the trophy. You understanding the value of the underlying parts to performing a move/form effectively but judge the end product negatively because?

I realised that all the time we (karateka) focus on aesthetics we deserve the reputation for having ineffective martial arts training and that we limit our own effectiveness by misusing the tools s we have been given.
***Totally disagree. Aesthetics. How do we do anything without it? If you do anything and I watch it, I can say there is an aesthetic value to it or not. It shouldn't reduce the value of it unless there are fundamental errors. I think this is where you get hung up. If we both saw someone perform a technique we would process the image differently. But we would both be able to evaluate what we see and decide if it has value or not and to the degree of the value.

So yeah, maybe my silver medal was too great a blow to my massive ego and I now must ruin kata comp for everyone, or maybe I just thought about it critically for a minute. You decide.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm sure all of the above is true.

But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.

All judging is subjective. Arbitrary would imply incompetence on the part of those judging.

Try and imagine a world where boxing tournaments included artistic speed ball drilling.

Kinda extreme analogy wise?

Tournament kata is time spent mastering non martial skills and it is ingraining incorrect performance of kata. Sure on an individual level obsess all you want over performance but my issue is the cultural impact that aesthetic kata performance has had on the art..

I can agree that kata competition has some issues in principle. I think it going too far to ban kata competition. Why not showcase karateka undertaking their skills at engaging in what one member referred to as the "soul of karate." There is such a martial art contingent out there that disputes the legitimacy of kata as a martial art practice.

There are plenty of dance schools. If that's what you enjoy why go to a karate club to find it?

Thank you Rob Redmond.

 

[dvcochran]

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Perfection of movement is one way to describe kata, but what perfection is will change with every form nevermind which style it is.

The first form you learn in Shotokan has two techniques, low block and punch. Yet in that form is a set rhythm for executing 3 stepping punches. It's the most commonly missed part of that form. How can someone unfamiliar judge it?

More importantly though if you are using the form correctly as a training tool, your rhythm and connectivity of the two techniques can vary all across the form, depending on what applications you are practising.
In which case, how can you judge the form? How do you apply a standard where the nature of the tool is that the standards change depending upon your understanding and focus?

The idea that kata performance is something that can be judged is precisely the cultural problem I was describing. The idea that you can compare yourself to others based on nonsensical ideas about how forms look totally defeats the purpose of training martial arts.

If you want to know how you compare with your peers, fight them.
The fight is where you judge technique. Not the form.

Man, you live in contradiction. If you want to live completely in the past, why do you even offer your opinion?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Very common over here. And not just different karate methods, but Japanese judging Korean judging Chinese methods, etc., I think it’s a problem, just does not work well.

Judging a kata by the style you train or have accomplishment in makes much sense. OTOH, I don't have to be an expert to present an informed opinion about the OP's kata illustration. Understanding kata conceptually, understanding traditional karate or traditional martial arts overall puts me in the position to express an evaluation having potential merit.

 

[Tez3]

Ok, you have obviously taken exception to a few things I have said

I haven't taken 'exception' to your comments, I simply don't understand quite frankly how a karateka can competently and fairly judge a CMA form and vice versa. I find the idea of mixed style karate/form competition to be frankly quite strange. I have only ever competed in and judged my own style as do most martial artists I know. I believe there are mixed style comps here but they are like hen's teeth, rare.

 

[punisher73]

I haven't taken 'exception' to your comments, I simply don't understand quite frankly how a karateka can competently and fairly judge a CMA form and vice versa. I find the idea of mixed style karate/form competition to be frankly quite strange. I have only ever competed in and judged my own style as do most martial artists I know. I believe there are mixed style comps here but they are like hen's teeth, rare.

This I believe is a perfect post to show the two sides I see being talked about.

1) Your style is YOUR style, and only people from that style will really know what to be looking for. Power generation is done differently, certain aspects of kata may be done slowly or with purposeful tension to highlight or illustrate a series of moves. Only someone well versed will know that.

2) In an open competition, you will be judged on the aesthetic and athletic performance of your kata based on criteria different than a single style looking at their own style. Why? Because they need a standard starting point and need all of the katas to be the same sort of execution to judge fairly. This moves the kata more into the realm of performance martial art and highlights the "art' of all our forms.

For example, I know of some stylists who perform their kata one way for their execution and practice, but will highlight how they will change and alter the moves to perform in an open competition. Things like, high kicks when the kick in the kata is groin or lower, dramatic pauses or rhythm changes to make it more dramatic. You can score very poorly if you were to perform the performance kata in a competition judged by your own peers because it isn't a good kata, yet you can score very highly in an open format with that same kata because of the criteria or vice versa, score poorly on a well executed but "boring" kata in an open format because it doesn't have the dramatic elements put in.

I don't compete, I can appreciate the talent and dedication and in many cases the athleticism it goes into training competition kata though.

BUT, how can you judge a Rembrandt versus a Monet versus a Picasso on how well they painted a tree? Each one is beautiful within the methods of their expression.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I haven't taken 'exception' to your comments, I simply don't understand quite frankly how a karateka can competently and fairly judge a CMA form and vice versa. I find the idea of mixed style karate/form competition to be frankly quite strange. I have only ever competed in and judged my own style as do most martial artists I know. I believe there are mixed style comps here but they are like hen's teeth, rare.

Fair enough and you are fortunate to have a good concentration of schools in a reasonable geographic area that can provide you with the feedback on your particular style.

Where I am, we have a good number of Kyokushin schools nearby so our students do not have to travel far to get a tournament experience. We have seen a few CMA schools come out to participate and we hope they feel that the experience was worthwhile to their training. If not, I suppose they wouldn't come back.