Kata bunkai for self defense

[drop bear]

Another example. You have a book in Japanese that is titled 'Understanding Kata'. If you can't read Japanese you can copy it, you know what is meant to be saying but you haven't got the first idea of what it's really about even if it has pictures. That applies to the Bubishi as translated by Patrick McCarthy. There are pictures and captions but to even trained people the meaning is a mystery. The masters lent their book for their senior students to faithfully copy. They had all the information but without the masters knowledge it was just another book.

So kata has been created perfect but has been understood imperfectly.

 

[Drose427]

So kata has been created perfect but has been understood imperfectly.

Thats not what he said either.....

 

[drop bear]

Thats not what he said either.....

So kata was not created perfect. And so can be improved on. Mabye by these students when there knowledge surpasses the master.

 

[Drose427]

So kata was not created perfect. And so can be improved on. Mabye by these students when there knowledge surpasses the master.

Well.. again you're missing the point of kata and bunkai....

There isnt a standard interpretation, its whatever moves you personally can make work.

We've tried explaining this to you in the past and you seem to have trouble understanding it

 

[drop bear]

Well.. again you're missing the point of kata and bunkai....

There isnt a standard interpretation, its whatever moves you personally can make work.

We've tried explaining this to you in the past and you seem to have trouble understanding it

So understanding where kata is wrong is part of the way to understanding kata.

 

[Drose427]

So understanding where kata is wrong is part of the way to understanding kata.

If your reasoning is "kata is a waste of time" you dont have an understanding, you have an opinion.

An uneducated one at that considering you've never had any training of kata and applying them.

When there are professional fighters who make time to study kata, even if I havent personally use applications, id be inclined to believe kata do something right.

Many of us dont even need the opinion of a professional fighter, we've used kata applications, or have seen members in our association use them.

Having an uneducated opinion is okay, but it doesnt make those who do kata wrong.

 

[drop bear]

If your reasoning is "kata is a waste of time" you dont have an understanding, you have an opinion.

An uneducated one at that considering you've never had any training of kata and applying them.

When there are professional fighters who make time to study kata, even if I havent personally use applications, id be inclined to believe kata do something right.

Many of us dont even need the opinion of a professional fighter, we've used kata applications, or have seen members in our association use them.

Having an uneducated opinion is okay, but it doesnt make those who do kata wrong.

And that is not at all what i said.

 

[Drose427]

And that is not at all what i said.

In your post you stated "understanding where kata is wrong", in many previous posts you've repeatedly affirmed that you believe kata to be a waste. I simply responded to the direction this conversation was heading.

assuming you meant something else entirely, kata is neither right or wrong. The same moves will be interpreted 3 different ways by three different people.

Kata being "right or wrong" is like a right or wrong answer to a rorshach test, or considering an IQ test Pass/Fail.

We've explained this to you so many times now Im beginning to think you simply like to argue

 

[K-man]

So kata has been created perfect but has been understood imperfectly.

Not at all. The kata is the kata. Nothing about being perfect or otherwise. All kata are different and even within Goju there is the Japanese version and the Okinawan version.

What your understanding is is up to you, nothing to do with perfect or imperfect. In time your understanding changes and you see more opportunities. I have studied under some of the best people in the world so when it comes to Goju kata, I think I have a fair grasp. Pretty much 15 years of personal study to date. That is when I first realised that despite knowing dozens of kata I really knew very little. So when you, with no training, tell me I don't understand, I think that is a bit rude.

 

[drop bear]

In your post you stated "understanding where kata is wrong", in many previous posts you've repeatedly affirmed that you believe kata to be a waste. I simply responded to the direction this conversation was heading.

assuming you meant something else entirely, kata is neither right or wrong. The same moves will be interpreted 3 different ways by three different people.

Kata being "right or wrong" is like a right or wrong answer to a rorshach test, or considering an IQ test Pass/Fail.

We've explained this to you so many times now Im beginning to think you simply like to argue

show me where i have affirmed kata to be a waste?

Otherwise I have repeatedly explained what i mean regarding my quote. And you still arguing a point I am not making.

 

[drop bear]

Not at all. The kata is the kata. Nothing about being perfect or otherwise. All kata are different and even within Goju there is the Japanese version and the Okinawan version.

What your understanding is is up to you, nothing to do with perfect or imperfect. In time your understanding changes and you see more opportunities. I have studied under some of the best people in the world so when it comes to Goju kata, I think I have a fair grasp. Pretty much 15 years of personal study to date. That is when I first realised that despite knowing dozens of kata I really knew very little. So when you, with no training, tell me I don't understand, I think that is a bit rude.

Ok name one part ok a kata you do that is wrong.

 

[drop bear]

So when you, with no training, tell me I don't understand, I think that is a bit rude.

But is ok when you do it constantly.

It is not the kata i am discussing but the logic supporting it.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I've not read the thread so apologies if I'm simply reposting what another has said.

Kata and Forms and their Bunkai/Applications are training tools that work - although neither of which, on their own, will develop you into a good fighter (competitively or for self defence purposes).

Kata/Set Form: teaches you the essence of the art, the strategy of fighting - e.g. this is how a northern mantis practitioner could respond to attacks x, y and z.

The rehersed bunkai/application/2 person drills practice helps to practice these techniques against an opponent who is resisting moderately - not fully. If someone knows exactly what counter youre going to throw and tenses up the correct muscles in defence then the liklihood is the technique will not work very well. At this stage we are only practising, when we do this 'for real', hopefully your opponent hasnt guessed what youre going to do.

The most important part of this training is a 3rd component that unfortunately, doesn't seem to be trained as frequently as the other two methods: pressure testing, against fully resisting opponents in an unscripted environment - call it sparring, sanda or whatever...the key is that as you progress, the training becomes more 'free form' until we reach the point of basically, what most people refer to as sparring - this doesnt have to be a 'fight' or an enagagement, it can be defend, counter and run away/disengage - the important part is that youre naturally responding to unpredictable aggression.

For me, the absence of the 3rd component is a real issue and it serves to single handedly tarnish the reputation of TMAs. I'm now at a point in my training whereby I'm not prepared to spend X hours training in a style that doesnt offer this, because I'm not getting the benefits associated with forms and application training. This is really annoying, because i communicate with a number of TMA guys in the UK and I watch videos of their training and really like what I see........I want to train a TMA like that, but I dont have much of an opportunity where I am.

 

[Tez3]

Ok name one part ok a kata you do that is wrong.

What do you mean? It makes no sense.

 

[K-man]

What do you mean? It makes no sense.

Sadly, the truth.

 

[K-man]

Ok name one part ok a kata you do that is wrong.

Um! Yes. Exactly what do you mean? I perform my karate to the best of my ability and as close to what I have been taught as possible. How is that wrong?

But is ok when you do it constantly.

You are telling me I don't understand something that I have studied in depth over many years with the top people in the field.

You have never trained it, never studied it and yet you claim to have a greater understanding. How exactly does that work? Why are you even posting in this thread?

It is not the kata i am discussing but the logic supporting it.

I fail to see any logic and this thread was to discuss bunkai for self defence. Perhaps you might like to address the topic.

 

[Tez3]

This is an interesting article from Iain Abernethy. I think there is confusion over what is 'fighting', 'self defence' and 'competitive fighting' and 'street fighting' often when talking about one we actually mean another.
The problems with street fighting Iain Abernethy

 

[MaxRob]

Interesting I need to study and look into this.

 

[drop bear]

Um! Yes. Exactly what do you mean? I perform my karate to the best of my ability and as close to what I have been taught as possible. How is that wrong?

You are telling me I don't understand something that I have studied in depth over many years with the top people in the field.

You have never trained it, never studied it and yet you claim to have a greater understanding. How exactly does that work? Why are you even posting in this thread?
I fail to see any logic and this thread was to discuss bunkai for self defence. Perhaps you might like to address the topic.

you were moving into dogma again regarding kata. Some of the arguments just went way off. (kata survives because of its effectiveness Something something. I could find the quote but I am not that bothered.)

With some really interesting similarities between creationism. (system created perfect but handed down flawed)
And Darwinism.(system created flawed but evolves.)

That was all. It interests me not only how people train but how they think about their training.

But it is a pretty difficult concept to get across so I am out.

 

[drop bear]

I am back.