Joint Locks - How Effective?

[rudai123]

Hello, I am currently taking Karate (Seido) which is going pretty well. There is a Hapkido school near me, so I did a lot of YouTube watching of Hapkido. I see that Hapkido has lots of wrist and other joint locks for takedowns and basic self defense. Obviously, what I see on YouTube is not a real situation. I wrestled in college and don't see how many of the takedowns would actually work in a real scenario. So my question is, in the heat of an attack, do joint locks really work for self defense?

 

[MAist25]

They can be effective if done correctly. In my opinion, a joint lock done all by itself would not work. You must stun and off-balance your attacker in order to pull of a lock. If your attacker feels you attacking one of his joints, he will immediately tense up and make it impossible to take him down. You must strike him first to disrupt the signals being sent to and from the brain in order to give you that split second opening to apply a lock. Also, I believe joint locks are much more effective against static attacks, such as grabs. Dynamic attacks like punches are almost impossible to catch out of the air and apply a joint lock to, as you often see in demonstrations. But Hapkido is much more than just joint locks. There are many different strikes, kicks, throws, etc. in addition to the joint locks that HKD is famous for. So whether you are facing a static or dynamic attack, Hapkido should provide you with sufficient techniques to defend yourself, if you are going to a decent school...

 

[WC_lun]

Joint locks can and are effective with a couple of caveats, First, a person must train agsinst someone that doesn't want to be locked. It is the only way to learn how to flow from one thing to another, recognizing when a lock is there and when it is not. Second, a person needs a teacher that can teach locks from an experieced perspective, not from theory. Finally, training enough to know when a lock is the best choice for what you want accomplished, can a proper lock be applied, and where to fall back to if the lock is not successful.

 

[dancingalone]

I believe hapkido to be a highly practical martial art if trained correctly with forethought towards realism.

Aikido is a sister art to hapkido and they share the same arsenal of locks and throws. One my fellow dans at my aikido dojo is a municipal police officer. He commonly uses techniques practiced in class to subdue and arrest perpetrators and he often shares his practical experience when appropriate. He has stated over and over that he has found aikido to be invaluable in his day-to-day work. Also, I am not sure if this is still the case, but I have read that the Tokyo police also send candidates to an annual Yoshinkan aikido instructor course, so they also feel the experience was useful.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

They can be effective if done correctly. In my opinion, a joint lock done all by itself would not work. You must stun and off-balance your attacker in order to pull of a lock...You must strike him first to disrupt the signals being sent to and from the brain in order to give you that split second opening to apply a lock. Also, I believe joint locks are much more effective against static attacks, such as grabs. Dynamic attacks like punches are almost impossible to catch out of the air and apply a joint lock to, as you often see in demonstrations. But Hapkido is much more than just joint locks. There are many different strikes, kicks, throws, etc. in addition to the joint locks that HKD is famous for. So whether you are facing a static or dynamic attack, Hapkido should provide you with sufficient techniques to defend yourself, if you are going to a decent school...

WC_lun

Joint locks can and are effective with a couple of caveats, First, a person must train agsinst someone that doesn't want to be locked. It is the only way to learn how to flow from one thing to another, recognizing when a lock is there and when it is not. Second, a person needs a teacher that can teach locks from an experieced perspective, not from theory.

Dancingalone

I believe hapkido to be a highly practical martial art if trained correctly with forethought towards realism.

Excellent advice from the above members. Joint locks are a specialty of mine as I use them almost on a daily basis at one level or another of resistance. They can be instumental in ending a confrontation or controlling an individual when strikes/kicks are not desirable or appropriate. And occassionally, it can be used to end a confrontation where a strike or kick wouldn't (due to circumstances such as the perp not feeling pain or continuing to fight even if something has been broken or dislocated) as a proper lock doesn't rely solely upon pain for compliance. A proper lock should immobilize an individual and reduce his/her ability for specific movements. Generally speaking, a strike should preceded a lock attempt to maximize the chance to apply the lock. There will occassionally be times when you can go straight for the lock and this is where an experienced instructor comes into play (rather than one that teaches solely from theory).

 

[Thesemindz]

There are no magic bullets. Joint locks work, but like everything else you have to train to make them work. I find larger joint locks, like straight arm bars and hammerlocks, easier to apply against a resisting opponent. But I've taken down resisting opponents with wrist locks too. I've had students who were security professionals who have used locks I've taught them to control and subdue unruly belligerents. I've also been submitted, walked, and taken down with wrist locks while fully resisting and defending. They work, because they are designed to take advantage of the natural structure of the human body and it's vulnerabilities. But you will only be able to make them work if you are taught how to do them properly, practice them diligently, and train against increasing levels of resistance.

I know some great Hapkido guys, but like every other art the individual instructor is far more important than the sign over the door.


-Rob

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite so, TMZ. As with all such discourses, it is much more a case of the artist rather than the art that makes the difference.

Before my bike accident I was a very experienced practitioner in Lau gar kung fu. If I let him, a friend of mine who did Aikido could indeed enforce all manner of comedic pain and compliance with joint locks ... but the emphasis was on the "if I let him" part because there was a considerable disparity in 'years under the belt' between us. If I decided I wasn't going to 'let him in' then I'd intercept his moves with strikes to the encroaching limb(s). But that doesn't mean what he knew was not good, it's just that I knew how to spoil his moves and could do it because I was more experienced than he was.

The man or woman always matters more than what it is that they study.

 

[Thesemindz]

There's also a difference between pain compliance and structural advantage. I'm a pretty tough guy. You can do certain techniques against me that hurt, but if I focus I can ignore the pain and fight back. Then there are other techniques that are true "locks" which immobilize the body and when fully applied can not be defended without breaking the bones and joints. Of course, if you're really, really tough, you could break your own wrist against the lock and continue to fight back, but that takes a lot more focus.


-Rob

 

[Buka]

I really like joint locks. They were first taught to me in the early seventies ("taught" being a loose definition in this case) by my buddy, Joe, a DT instructor and forty year Kenpo man. I was a stubborn young man, one of the opinion, "Oh, yeah? Show me. Make me bark like a dog." It was one of the longest afternoons of my life. Within five minutes I was yapping like a Chihuahua with it's leg caught in a trap.

Spent the better part of that summer drilling them with Joe and with my students. There were nights our arms and wrists were so sore we couldn't brush our teeth. Took a few years to feel comfortable with them. I hooked up with Wally Jay, and, man, that was something. I was back to being a Chihuahua again. Professor Jay was a trip and a half, sweetest man you ever met, but could put a world of hurt on you once his hand got to any part of you. He taught us so much.

By then I was a DT instructor and was working with a lot of cops, many of whom had strong martial backgrounds. But a lot of them had more street experience than I did. They taught me as much as I taught them. I learned - in a knock down, drag out battle you have to end the violence before you can apply the joint lock. At least, I do. I'm sure there are guys who are better at it, and much stronger than me. And sometimes strong helps.

Hooked up with the Gracies in the early nineties, the term joint lock took on an entirely new meaning. (I barked so much I was starting to crave dog food) My buddy, Harold, who was a Hapkido man I met at tournaments, was nice enough to spend some time with me and my guys as well, as did some cops I knew from another department who were Aikido men. I was getting locked up so much I sometimes couldn't open my car door. (I have to feel it when I'm crazy resisting to have faith)

My conclusions? Joint locks work great if you get, or create, an opportunity to apply them. Everyone's got their favorites, and that's probably the way it's supposed to be.

 

[Twin Fist]

i would NEVER depend on a joint lock.

never

 

[Buka]

i would NEVER depend on a joint lock.

never

Quoted for truth.
I'd never depend on a punch, a kick or throw, either.

 

[mook jong man]

I think they are effective if you have a mindset of not trying for a specific lock , but instead have about three or four different ones that you can transition to if the first is resisted .

Such as if he bends his arm put him in a vertical wrist lock , if he straightens it use an arm bar , if he moves it to the back use a hammer lock.
Just knowing the individual locks are not enough you must know how to transition through all the points of the lock flow.

There is also a lot to be said for distraction like giving the tricep a good wack with the edge of your hand before you roll the armbar on or a stamp kick to the back of the knee joint just before you put on the vertical wristlock.

 

[Jenna]

Hello, I am currently taking Karate (Seido) which is going pretty well. There is a Hapkido school near me, so I did a lot of YouTube watching of Hapkido. I see that Hapkido has lots of wrist and other joint locks for takedowns and basic self defense. Obviously, what I see on YouTube is not a real situation. I wrestled in college and don't see how many of the takedowns would actually work in a real scenario. So my question is, in the heat of an attack, do joint locks really work for self defense?

If you are a Karateka then I think this is a bit like asking yourself, do punches work, or do kicks work. The answer is simple:

Yes. They will work if you punch or kick with 1. intent, 2. appropriate distance, 3. appropriate speed and power, 4. correct follow-through and 5. correct covering from a defensive point of view.
No. They will not work if you do not throw out your punch or kick with any appropriate level of expertise.

The question you have to ask yourself is. Am I feeling lucky.. Sorry, I mean, do I have sufficient expertise to apply my punch / kick / lock / throw / whatever

Good luck and best wishes with your Karate and Hapkido. Youtube is a pile of ***** for learning anything even near the reality of most martial arts.

 

[Cyriacus]

If you are a Karateka then I think this is a bit like asking yourself, do punches work, or do kicks work. The answer is simple:

Yes. They will work if you punch or kick with 1. intent, 2. appropriate distance, 3. appropriate speed and power, 4. correct follow-through and 5. correct covering from a defensive point of view.
No. They will not work if you do not throw out your punch or kick with any appropriate level of expertise.

The question you have to ask yourself is. Am I feeling lucky.. Sorry, I mean, do I have sufficient expertise to apply my punch / kick / lock / throw / whatever

Good luck and best wishes with your Karate and Hapkido. Youtube is a pile of ***** for learning anything even near the reality of most martial arts.

I dunno, Jenna.
Ameri-Do-Te is pretty Street Lethal.
Its saved My LIFE Eight Times from Potential Rapists.

 

[Jenna]

I dunno, Jenna.
Ameri-Do-Te is pretty Street Lethal.
Its saved My LIFE Eight Times from Potential Rapists.

Ameri Do Te? That is the musical scale song Maria sang to the little Von Trapps in The Sound of Music? Yes I should think that would deter any street attacker. Again though, as with any defensive technique, show songs are only effective when performed with correct timing, distance and power. Otherwise, you might as well apply your best Lady Gaga, and Lady Gaga, is just not good Kung Fu.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ameri Do Te? That is the musical scale song Maria sang to the little Von Trapps in The Sound of Music? Yes I should think that would deter any street attacker. Again though, as with any defensive technique, show songs are only effective when performed with correct timing, distance and power. Otherwise, you might as well apply your best Lady Gaga, and Lady Gaga, is just not good Kung Fu.

No, I mean the Combat Art

Optionally, you could make a bunch of Impressionable Youths watch Expert Village Videos about how to RNC People. Because that totally benefits Society!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The thing to keep in mind is that a joint lock is only a hair-breadths distance from being joint destruction. The beautiful rolling throws don't happen in a full speed violent altercation against someone that probably doesn't know how to 'go with' the lock and break fall. I'm specifically talking about locks that lead to a throw or takedown that isn't focused on control. For example, an outside wrist lock takedown can easily damage the tendons and ligaments in the arm from the wrist to the elbow, and in some cases the shoulder. One can apply force in more of a snapping motion rather than a guiding motion if necesary and applicable to the situation. This expands the use of locking knowledge by adding an additional layer.

 

[oftheherd1]

i would NEVER depend on a joint lock.

never

Un ... Was that sarcasm or do you really think joint locks don't work? They are like any other technique, properly learned and appropriately executed, they work.

 

[seasoned]

I feel that in certain situations where a level of compliance is needed, alternatives to the good old punch and kick are a good common sense tool for the tool box.........

 

[Cyriacus]

Un ... Was that sarcasm or do you really think joint locks don't work? They are like any other technique, properly learned and appropriately executed, they work.

Hes saying that you should not DEPEND on it - Not that it wouldnt work.