Jena 6

[Doc]

I don't know, Doc. If you think the system is working, after telling us of three hundred funerals for young black men in South Central, you and I have different definitions of working.

The system doesn't stop people from killing, it merely punishes those that do. There is nothing in any system anywhere that can stop people from kiling other than a "Police State," with confews, control of your every movement, and instant justice." And that doesn't stop people from killing either. What I speak of is not part of the sysytem. There is no amount of police that can stop crime without the cooperation and support of the people they serve.

People have to be "outraged" when there are those in their community that break the law. They have to make fliers, get on the internet, and march when one black child is accidentally killed in a drive by. They have to get off their butts and support the police being proactive to keep their community safe, instead of being outraged everytime some 13 year old in a stolen car evades the police, then tries to run down the cop, and gets shot because the cop happens to be white.

I am in no way pleased with those numbers ... but as you said, it is not the system killing those young men. But, neither is the system controlling or punishing appropriately in the community, apparently.

I've come to learn a community gets the kind of law enforcement they want and deserve. There are areas of Southern California where this is not an issue because the community calls the police and expects to get an appropriate response. What do you do with a community that thinks the police are an occupation force because some race baiting self serving half-*** "reverend" says so? What do you do with people that don't want the police to stop people in their neighborhood. What do you do with people who can get outraged at the Jena 6 thousands of miles away, but don't care about the 6 guys standing on the corner at 3 o'clock in the morning, and won't call the police and demand to see what they're doing?

In Louisiana, the system seemed to be operating differently for the white folks. Mr. Sloan (white guy) got probation for cracking a guy over the head with a bottle. Mr. Bell (black guy) got 22 years (reduced from a possible 100 years) for throwing a punch that knocked a guy unconcious. Both preciptiated in their own participation in the system.

I don't know the facts and I'm sure neither do you. We're all listening and reading what someone else says. I usually read the court records and police reports in these issues, but truthfully, I'm not even interested. It could be possible, and if the circumstances warrant it, should be addressed. But if they both had kep their hands in their pockets it wouldn't even be an issue.

If you have an idea about what a white northeast liberal can do to help stop the killing in South Central or Philly, please let me know. Last time I heard, even a black Northeast Liberal (Mr. Bill Cosby) got grief for suggesting black-on-black crime and black culture needed serious attention.

Don't try to help people who aren't interested in helping themselves. Find the ones that are, and help them in anyway you can. The rest will have to develop a decent amount of "outrage" for circumstances of their own making first, and take responsibility for it. Lifes not fair never has been. Some are born of two well educated parents with money in the bank. Some don't know who their father is, and their mothers on crack. There is no system anywhere that can even that out. Sooner or later, you do the best you can do in a "system" that gives you all the opportunities in the world. You just have to recognize them. Or you can continue to blame others, and stand around with your hand out.

Funny thing, if you are poor and black, and you work and go to school and become successful, unless you're giving them something directly, you're treated no different than other "outsiders." You become a part of the system, the establishment, because of your work ethic and acquired accent called English.

 

[Doc]

Looking at the crime stats for Eagle Rock, may be you should concern yourself about that first.

 

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[Brother John]

Well, now as I tell the local teenagers that I often have the chance to interact with for some of the community services that I do, you ALWAYS have to be concerned about your record, Juvenile or not. Young teens often don't think about how their actions will impact them down the line, and often need to be reminded.

Your juvenile record isn't wiped clean, despite what people commonly think, in that all that stuff will show up on background checks if you need any type of security clearance for any job, or if you apply to be a police officer, or military, etc. It's stored somewhere. You can expect that your record has been tracked for at least 10 years, juvenile or not.

So, the information on their juvenile records is available and usable for certain things, particularly security clearances and certain jobs. I just don't know the legalities or ethics behind publishing their records, or to what extent it can/should be usable in this case.

C.

I'm a correctional officer with the JJA (Juvenile Justice Authority)..
Juvenile records are not wiped clean, but once a person turns 18 they can hire a lawyer and sue to get their juvenile record expunged. The common mistake is that many think this is an automatic process upon turning 18. It isn't. It costs!
Even still: Expunged records can be viewed by correctional and LEO, but not schools or future employers.
..and not ALL records can be expunged. Rape, sodomy, indecent liberties and murder....NOPE........etched in stone.

Also: even if he is an adult now, his juvenile records SHOULDN'T ever be published. That's every state.
Exception: Unless he offered it! Then it's up for grabs.

Your Brother
John

 

[Big Don]

somewhat Off Topic:
How is Jena pronounced? I have heard it pronounced like "Gina" and like "Jenna"
is one correct, or is it tomato tomAHto type of thing?

 

[CoryKS]

somewhat Off Topic:
How is Jena pronounced? I have heard it pronounced like "Gina" and like "Jenna"
is one correct, or is it tomato tomAHto type of thing?

It's the first one. I found it in this article, which is pretty interesting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922...lled_jena_3;_ylt=ApvcexcbjCKgxnvxcvoZglwkeedF

 

[Brother John]

Here is a clip of a rally, in front of the Jena courthouse. (which he pronounces Gina, btw)

It's a man who's a lawyer and came from the ACLU (I think, might be NAACP, he speaks of both.....and i'm tired) in New York to Jena to give speeches and to open a new chapter of his organization.

There's bongo's and tambourines and a whistle (like a ref's whistle) and he keeps leading his crowd to chant "NO JUSTICE - - NO PEACE".
I kind of thought that the NACCP and/or the ACLU was about seeking justice and peace, didn't know they weren't peaceful.
Doesn't that kind of seem, I dunno,....to incite civil unrest?

HERE's THE LINK

Just thought you'd like to see it and maybe add to the discussion.
Your Brother
John

 

[CoryKS]

I kind of thought that the NACCP and/or the ACLU was about seeking justice and peace, didn't know they weren't peaceful.
Doesn't that kind of seem, I dunno,....to incite civil unrest?

Yes, I think it does.

Here's an article from Thomas Sowell regarding the "NJNP" slogan. I think this is maybe not a good part of the country to start proposing that sort of thing.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MGIyZTNmOGEzNTg0OTUyODNkNzhiNDVjMWE3MDk0NzA=

 

[Doc]

Yes, I think it does.

Here's an article from Thomas Sowell regarding the "NJNP" slogan. I think this is maybe not a good part of the country to start proposing that sort of thing.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MGIyZTNmOGEzNTg0OTUyODNkNzhiNDVjMWE3MDk0NzA=

That's Dr. Thomas Sowell My mentor.

 

[michaeledward]

Yes, I think it does.

Here's an article from Thomas Sowell regarding the "NJNP" slogan. I think this is maybe not a good part of the country to start proposing that sort of thing.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MGIyZTNmOGEzNTg0OTUyODNkNzhiNDVjMWE3MDk0NzA=

I believe Mr. Sowell mischaracterizes the arguments to benefit his position.

Example

The issue is the prosecution of a black high-school student accused of stomping on an unconscious white student — and the lack of criminal prosecution of white students who hung a noose on a tree, who were disciplined by the school​

As I understand it, that is not exactly the case being discussed. Most of the arguments I have seen ... and those I have made, is that hanging of the nooses on the tree is racist, mean and derogatory. I don't think I have made an argument that it is a criminal act. (Although, if burning a cross on a public property is a crime, so too should be the noose.).

The inequity being argued is the difference in treatment of Mr. Sloan, who when found guilty in a criminal proceeding received probation for assaulting the black student. Compared to the attempted murder charge - a felony, against Mr. Bell (et al) for assaulting a white student.

I suppose if you alter the actual facts you can make any arguement seem reasonable.



Or how about this.

The black student was found guilty but the verdict was overturned on appeal — not on grounds that he was not guilty, but on grounds that the appellate court did not think he should have been tried as an adult.​

The appellate court did not think? WTF? It was not the attitude or the opinion of the appellate court that the defendant should not be tried as an adult, but rather the law of the State that says so. (I've been over this before). In Louisiana, certain crimes are required to be tried in front of the adult system, if the accused is older than 15 years of age. One of those crimes is attempted murder. When the prosecutor lowered the charges from attempted murder to aggravated battery, the trial should have been moved to the juvenile system.

I suppose if one's default position is all courts are filled with 'activisit judges', then legal doctrine becomes irrelevant.

Or - alternate theory of the crime here - Could it be that an overzealous, racist District Attorney over-charged the accused in order to place the crime before the adult system, knowing he would be unable to meet the burden of proof of 'Attempted Murder' and 'Conspiracy to Commit Murder'. Then he gambling that reducing the charges would slip by, unnoticed? As I said earlier, we've never seen an over aggressive DA in this country, have we.

The usual legal procedure would be to try the student again, but this time not as an adult. However, the usual legal procedures are not good enough for those who have once again seized the opportunity to hype race — and to hell with questions of guilt or innocence or legal procedures.​

While there are some - such as those in the you tube video - who are arguing for an immediate release of the accused. Most of the comments I have seen are not for a Pardon: wipe the slate completely clean. The students have spent the last nine months in jail, being unable to post bond. Those who are arguing 'Free the Jena 6', I believe, are saying that 'Time Served' is an appropriate punishment to fit the crime.

Second Degree Aggrevated Battery is a pretty severe crime in Louisiana. From what I could find in sentencing issues for the State, usually the sentence is in the five year range. Of course, those sentences have been focused on adult convicts, and usually associated with other crimes (drug possession, weapons charges).

I'm not certain that Second Degree Aggrevated Battery with a juvenile would match that five years. I am not certain that it is the appropriate charge for the students, if they are to be treated as juveniles.

But, let's get a fair charge. Let's have a fair trial, and see what the results lead us.

I think Dr. Thomas Sowell has created an article filled with lies and misrepresentations in order to prove a point to himself. I don't believe he he lending clarity to the subject. Now, some of my differences of opinion with this article may be a different philosophical/political attitude. But some of those differences are not so easily dismissed. He is wrong on facts. He builds straw men to tear them down.

 

[Doc]

I believe Mr. Sowell mischaracterizes the arguments to benefit his position.

I think Dr. Thomas Sowell has created an article filled with lies and misrepresentations in order to prove a point to himself. I don't believe he he lending clarity to the subject. Now, some of my differences of opinion with this article may be a different philosophical/political attitude. But some of those differences are not so easily dismissed. He is wrong on facts. He builds straw men to tear them down.

Then you should email him [email protected] with your assertions. But I warn you to bring your "A" Game. He is a world renowed educator and economist who's research is ALWAYS unbiased and pragmatic as you would expect from an economist. He a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Instittue at Stanford Unversity. He is best able to argue his positions.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Then you should email him [email protected] with your assertions. But I warn you to bring your "A" Game. He is a world renowed educator and economist who's research is ALWAYS unbiased and pragmatic as you would expect from an economist. He a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Instittue at Stanford Unversity. He is best able to argue his positions.

Taking bets?

 

[CoryKS]

That's Dr. Thomas Sowell My mentor.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan. I have all of his stuff except a couple of the older ones and the new letters compilation.

 

[michaeledward]

Then you should email him [email protected] with your assertions. But I warn you to bring your "A" Game. He is a world renowed educator and economist who's research is ALWAYS unbiased and pragmatic as you would expect from an economist. He a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Instittue at Stanford Unversity. He is best able to argue his positions.

I'll take it under advisement.

However, his words are plain, and his logic is flawed.

Part of the big challenge in our culture today, is that we Americans are generally unable or unwilling to critically review articles like this.

My question is ... are my criticisms of his article flawed? I whipped them off the top of my head at a quick glance. I would assume his article suffered through several drafts and a publisher before being released. It would be far easier for me to make a mistake in reasoning. If so, point it out. Not a difference of opinion, to which we are all entitled, but rather an flaw in logic.

the usual legal procedures are not good enough for those who have once again seized the opportunity to hype race —
​

Is this, or is this not a straw man argument?

I certainly have argued that race is a component of the injustice in Jena. I'm not certain I have 'hyped' race. Point to some reasonable arguments by people like me who claim that a re-trail should not be considered.

The black student was found guilty but the verdict was overturned on appeal — not on grounds that he was not guilty, but on grounds that the appellate court did not think he should have been tried as an adult.
​

Was the argument of the appellate court based on attitudes and opinions, or was it based on law. If it was based on the feelings of the 3rd Circuit, and not the law, show me.

I've done my part to demonstrate the errors in reasoning. If I missed some reasoning, then point it out here. Don't just appeal to a higher authority. For that is a logical error, as well.

 

[Doc]

I'll take it under advisement.

However, his words are plain, and his logic is flawed.

Part of the big challenge in our culture today, is that we Americans are generally unable or unwilling to critically review articles like this.

My question is ... are my criticisms of his article flawed? I whipped them off the top of my head at a quick glance. I would assume his article suffered through several drafts and a publisher before being released. It would be far easier for me to make a mistake in reasoning. If so, point it out. Not a difference of opinion, to which we are all entitled, but rather an flaw in logic.

the usual legal procedures are not good enough for those who have once again seized the opportunity to hype race —
​

Is this, or is this not a straw man argument?

I certainly have argued that race is a component of the injustice in Jena. I'm not certain I have 'hyped' race. Point to some reasonable arguments by people like me who claim that a re-trail should not be considered.

The black student was found guilty but the verdict was overturned on appeal — not on grounds that he was not guilty, but on grounds that the appellate court did not think he should have been tried as an adult.
​

Was the argument of the appellate court based on attitudes and opinions, or was it based on law. If it was based on the feelings of the 3rd Circuit, and not the law, show me.

I've done my part to demonstrate the errors in reasoning. If I missed some reasoning, then point it out here. Don't just appeal to a higher authority. For that is a logical error, as well.

Maybe you didn't understand. Why are you arguing with us about something someone else wrote? He's dome the research and is in a better position to defend his point of view. So what's your point? If you are unwilling to confront the source of your discourse, than what am I to say? I gave you the opportunity. You may take it or not. Until you do, that part of the discussion is closed and you are debating with the wrong people.

 

[crushing]

Here is a clip of a rally, in front of the Jena courthouse. (which he pronounces Gina, btw)

It's a man who's a lawyer and came from the ACLU (I think, might be NAACP, he speaks of both.....and i'm tired) in New York to Jena to give speeches and to open a new chapter of his organization.

There's bongo's and tambourines and a whistle (like a ref's whistle) and he keeps leading his crowd to chant "NO JUSTICE - - NO PEACE".
I kind of thought that the NACCP and/or the ACLU was about seeking justice and peace, didn't know they weren't peaceful.
Doesn't that kind of seem, I dunno,....to incite civil unrest?

HERE's THE LINK

Just thought you'd like to see it and maybe add to the discussion.
Your Brother
John

His threats of 'no peace' feed the racist stereotype, the very same one some have tried to use to defend the Jena 6, that violence is acceptable when things aren't going how they are should go. That there will be violence should the courts decide wrongly. That violence is ok when presented with despicable symbols of racism, such as a noose. That violence is the answer when confronted with some ignorant fool that doesn't like you because of the color of your skin.

 

[michaeledward]

Maybe you didn't understand. Why are you arguing with us about something someone else wrote? He's dome the research and is in a better position to defend his point of view. So what's your point? If you are unwilling to confront the source of your discourse, than what am I to say? I gave you the opportunity. You may take it or not. Until you do, that part of the discussion is closed and you are debating with the wrong people.

I understand perfectly.

Is his logic flawed?

Is his languaged flawed?

The practice of critical thinking does not require confrontation, nor arguement, nor discussion. As I recollect, you often encourage people here to exercise critical thinking when it comes to kenpo.

 

[Doc]

I understand perfectly.

Is his logic flawed?

Is his languaged flawed?

The practice of critical thinking does not require confrontation, nor arguement, nor discussion. As I recollect, you often encourage people here to exercise critical thinking when it comes to kenpo.

HE'S done the research. HE knows the background. I don't. I prefer to argue from positions that I can defend because I have the correct information. In this case, I acknowledge I have not done the investigation on the circumstances surrounding the incidents. I defer to those that have, and I don't consider looking at internet rants.

 

[Ray]

The practice of critical thinking does not require confrontation, nor arguement, nor discussion. As I recollect, you often encourage people here to exercise critical thinking when it comes to kenpo.

When i think of critical thinking and Doc, I think of the many people who argue with him on the web kenpo-wise. They perform all kinds of "thought experiments" and talk from their point of reference. Having had a couple of ops to see for myself what he does, it makes sense to seek out the source and see it for yourself.

Using the same line of logic, it makes sense to talk directly with the person you're disagreeing with if possible. He might be able to have a better dialog with you, answering your questions and both of your (perhaps) gaining insight.

 

[michaeledward]

When i think of critical thinking and Doc, I think of the many people who argue with him on the web kenpo-wise. They perform all kinds of "thought experiments" and talk from their point of reference. Having had a couple of ops to see for myself what he does, it makes sense to seek out the source and see it for yourself.

Using the same line of logic, it makes sense to talk directly with the person you're disagreeing with if possible. He might be able to have a better dialog with you, answering your questions and both of your (perhaps) gaining insight.

Ray, does this mean I can only learn a Martial Arts technique from Mr. Parker?

Or is it possible to apply logic, body mechanics, and practical application to measure the effectiveness of an idea?