Jena 6

[Skip Cooper]

You don't know anything about me, so don't ever assume I'm writing off lynchings (no matter when they occured). That is the epitomy of arrogance, to feign knowledge of anothers' thoughts. Why don't you tell me when the last lynching of a black man by a white man occured? Then we can talk about how imminent the threat was.

You, too, are removed from the situation. Your bio says you're in La Porte, TX. Jena, LA is 263 miles away (according to mapquest), so perhaps your not as in tuned as you think. NYC is 205 miles from me, I wouldn't pretend to be more in touch with what's going on in the Bronx than you, simply because I'm geographically closer.

I will agree, vigorously, with your point on the parenting of both the black and white kids involved. I would extend the criticism to the teachers, administrators, school board, town administration, community leaders, and the police

The last lynching that occurred was in 1998 in Jasper, TX. Maybe you heard about it. A few racist white guys chained a black man to the back of their pickup truck and dragged him to his death. This may have not been a lynching with a noose, but a lynching nonetheless.

Yes, I am fortunate to live in a city where there is little or no racial tension, but I have lived in other cities where the tension was greater. And yes, I am myself removed from what is happening in Jena, however, I am not the one writing off pictures of lynchings because they are "decades old". Your comments lead me to believe that you are not sensitive to the stigma that comes from a past of hanging nooses, burning crosses, and men with pointy hats blowing up black churches.

I have agreed with much of what you have posted up until this quote. Perhaps I misunderstood your or perhaps you did not mean to write in your own words:

Those images are quite disturbing. They are also decades old, at least 4 and probably more based on the dress. Please don't misunderstand me, I think the placement of nooses in that tree was a despicable act. I just don't believe that it was a serious threat, one that carried the possibility of an imminent hanging.

I find that your questioning my geographic location almost comical. In terms of removed from the situation, I was not referring to where you reside on good ol' Rand McNally, I am sure you understood that. You don't have to live in Jena to know what is going on there. Also, I find it odd that you would attack me and then find a way to agree with me to end your post. Of course, you one upped me, but I'll let you have it.

Since we don't know everyones biography and their life philosophies, all we have to go on is the content of a person's posts. If you don't want people to make assumptions upon you, take care in what you post. Like good ol' dad used to say "think before you speak".

 

[Mark L]

I find that your questioning my geographic location almost comical. In terms of removed from the situation, I was not referring to where you reside on good ol' Rand McNally, I am sure you understood that. You don't have to live in Jena to know what is going on there. Also, I find it odd that you would attack me and then find a way to agree with me to end your post. Of course, you one upped me, but I'll let you have it.

Your words from post #91 "The problem lies in the fact that you are removed from the situation. If you are not living under the racial tension that exists in Jena, then how can you determine what is a serious threat?" Then you say you don't have to live there to know? You are as equally removed as I. I disagree with you, I do think you need to live in Jena to know what is going on there. The fact that some are attempting to justify a heinous assault in the name of racial tension is repugnant to me.

I'm not attacking you, I'm cautioning you to not read into my posts meaning that is not there. If you'd prefer that we agree on all, or nothing, I can do that.

Let me have it? Gee, thanks.

 

[Mark L]

The last lynching that occurred was in 1998 in Jasper, TX. Maybe you heard about it. A few racist white guys chained a black man to the back of their pickup truck and dragged him to his death. This may have not been a lynching with a noose, but a lynching nonetheless.

No, it's not (according to good 'ol Webster). I hope the guys that did that were arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced. My wish is that they suffered greatly before being put to a slow, painful, humiliating death.

We're talking about the credibility and imminence of the threat attached to nooses hung from trees in Jena, not pick-up trucks.

 

[Skip Cooper]

Your words from post #91 "The problem lies in the fact that you are removed from the situation. If you are not living under the racial tension that exists in Jena, then how can you determine what is a serious threat?" Then you say you don't have to live there to know? You are as equally removed as I. I disagree with you, I do think you need to live in Jena to know what is going on there. The fact that some are attempting to justify a heinous assault in the name of racial tension is repugnant to me.

I'm not attacking you, I'm cautioning you to not read into my posts meaning that is not there. If you'd prefer that we agree on all, or nothing, I can do that.

Let me have it? Gee, thanks.

In my post, I was not referring to the town of Jena itself, but of the racial conditions that are found in many communities similar to Jena . If one needs to live in Jena to understand racial tension, then why are we discussing this topic. Since not one among us posting on this thread live in Jena, LA then this has all been a colossal waste of time.

I am not among those who justify the attack based on the racial tension, like you, I condemn it. I just understand the racial overtones of a noose and what it may mean to a young black man in the south. Now the young man who sees a noose as a threat still has to make a choice. To act on such a threat in a violent manner is criminal. He could choose to ignore the matter and this will place him on an intellectual plane above those who hung the noose in the first place.

If you are suggesting that we agree to disagree, then fine I agree to disagree with you. I agree that the boys who hung the noose was in error, not criminal, but in error nonetheless. I agree that the beating was criminal and the ones who participated in this crime should be prosecuted to the fullest length of the law. I agree that those who seek to justify this beating because of the racial tension is repugnant. What has happened to personal responsibility? It seems the only thing we disagree on is the concept of a noose being a threat, whether the last public hanging of a black man happened 40 years ago or longer.

I believe we can live together in peace while disagreeing on one topic concerning the Jena 6. Should we even be discussing the Jena 6, since we don't even live there?

By the way, your welcome

 

[Skip Cooper]

No, it's not (according to good 'ol Webster). I hope the guys that did that were arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced. My wish is that they suffered greatly before being put to a slow, painful, humiliating death.

We're talking about the credibility and imminence of the threat attached to nooses hung from trees in Jena, not pick-up trucks.

This discussion is deteriorating...now it seems we are arguing semantics.

According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law the word lynch is defined as a transitive verb meaning to put to death (as by hanging) by mob action without legal sanction. The words in parenthesis are given as an example of a lynching.

Moreover, according to the American Heritage Dictionary again the word lynch is defined as a trasitive verb meaning to execute without due process of law, especially to hang, as by a mob. Again the suggestion of hanging is an example.

It seems to me that the accepted meaning to lynch is defined as the unlawful execution of another human being. It just so happens that in the good ol' days hanging was popular among mobs. I am sure that the word "lynch" would not be excluded in the horrible draggin death that James Byrd, Jr. suffered at the hands of three seriously racist white boys in a tiny east Texas town. And yes, they were convicted in his death. I would have to research the story to learn of their sentences. Since the crime happened in Texas, where everyone knows how much we love to execute criminals, I am sure that one if not all recieved the death penalty.

If you were a racist black youth, raised by racist black parents, living in a racist community with racist white youths, raised by racist white parents, then a noose hung from a tree in Jena could be viewed as a credible and eminent threat. And I don't have to live in Jena to know that.

 

[Mark L]

Skip,
I, too, think we are largely in agreement. I'm simply vexed by excuses offered in defense of felons, it's maddening to me. I do hope justice (blind as advertised) is served.

And yes, we should be discussing events that lie beyond our front door. Always.

 

[Mark L]

Your argument is deteriorating...

According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law the word lynch is defined as a transitive verb meaning to put to death (as by hanging) by mob action without legal sanction. The words in paranthesis are given as an example of a lynching.

Moreover, according to the American Heritage Dictionary again the word lynch is defined as a trasitive verb meaning to execute without due process of law, especially to hang, as by a mob. Again the suggestion of hanging is an example.

It seems to me that the accepted meaning to lynch is defined as the unlawful execution of another human being. It just so happens that in the good ol' days hanging was popular among mobs. I am sure this would not exclude the horrible death that James Byrd Jr. suffered at the hands of three seriously racist white boys in a tiny east Texas town.

You got me, you win. Have a nice night.

 

[Doc]

Even though? That seems a little biased right there, is it not possible to try to kill someone and just be incompetent? Democrats sure seem perpetually ready to tell all and sundry that blacks, and other minorities, can't help but be victims.
Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Martin Luther King III should have spent more time on applying the ideal expressed in Martin Luther King Jr's "I have a dream" speech and start judging people by not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Neither Sharpton nor Jackson should be held up as some kind of hero as BOTH are shameless race baiting shysters. Everytime Al Sharpton speaks on anything Tuwana Brawley ought to be mentioned, likewise,Jesse Jackson ought to have his "Hymie town" and other idiotic racist comments thrown into his teeth at every turn.
These are but a small part of my thoughts.

Well then, I guess I don't have to say anything. My only complaint is you missed a few.

 

[michaeledward]

Sorry for popping up again but the odd thing I notice is that no one uses the word "alleged". Over here the presumption is of innocence until proved guilty as I know it is over there so when anyone talks of something like this and that would include all the posters here they have to use the word alleged. The 'alleged' attack, the 'alleged' attackers even the 'alleged' victim.

This is done to indicate that it is for the court to decide the truth not the media or people stirring things up for either side. It's to indicate that eveidence has to be presented to prove guilt not for anyone to presume it. It's also to indicate that the public and the media have no way of knowing the truth until all the evidence is presented. It's used to indicate that we are being fair or at least trying to be.

You are correct, Tez3. Our language has been inadequate in describing the situation.

If one was so inclined, the legal defense that was offered to Mr. Bell appears to have been every bit as inadequate for such a serious charge. Here in the States, a defense council is provided to charged defendants, if the defendant is unable to secure council for himself/herself.

Mr. Blane Williams was the appointed defense attorney working on Mr. Bell's behalf. In defense of Mr. Bell, Mr. Williams apparently called zero defense witnesses at trial.

http://friendsofjustice.wordpress.c...ounsel-what-blane-williams-should-have-known/

Mr. Bell has acquired new, and hopefully better, council.

 

[Brother John]

John, you are incorrect with your ascertions.

Those charges are his juvenile charges, not his adult charges. Which is why I find it curious that they were first released by a Deputy Clerk, and that they were used as part of a Bond Hearing in this trial.

Mr. Bell will not turn 18 until January of next year.

WOW!!
.....I did not know that Michael. THAT's not supposed to happen, juvenile records published!! That's why I assumed those were adult charges!

hmmm...


regardless:
my take...
The nooses, should have legal action taken against whomever did it!
The beating, should also be prosecuted...
NEITHER is justified.
..once past these issues, there are important social circumstances that need delt with!!

It's REALLY too bad that this is being turned into a media circus! Once that happens, NO good will come of it, and important issues will not get addressed in an even handed way.

Your Brother
John

 

[Doc]

If I was in a car with 3 other people and they decide to rob a bank, while I sit in the car, we get pulled over by the cops and I swear on a stack of bibles that I never went into the bank, do you think they're going to take my word?

For the record, you're no different than those that physically went into the bank according to the law. Likewise if they killed someone, you'd be charged with murder. So it goes back to the things our parents taught us. Choose your friends carefully, and walking is sometimes beter than riding.

Like I said Mike, this thread is 8 pages of back and forth, back and forth. We all have our opinions and I stand by mine. Simply hanging a noose does not constitute a beating. Nobody was physically hurt from that, but someone sure was hurt in that beating. People can march until their legs fall off, but until the state, the politicians or whoever, does something, nothing will change. I have to wonder if all these people that are marching, knew the full story.

I doubt it. These things always begin with emotion first, and rational thought later. I remember not too long a go a bunch of white guys were presumed guilty of raping a black stripper, even though there was no evidence. People marched, teams were suspended from athletics, etc. It was all a lie and now the prosecutor has been disbarred and is facing crimnal charges himself. When I discussed the case after looking into it, some people didn't want to hear it. There's an old law enforcement story about officers trying to tell some people what happened in an incident. The complaining person said, "Don't confuse me with facts, I already know what happened."

On that note, I think I'm going to bow out of this thread for now.

I hear you. Rational thought rarely prevails. People tend to have what I call "selective outrage." I went around with a neighbor of mine who was fuming about the "Jena 6." I asked him what he knew about the incident. All he knew is that some young blacks were being "wrongly prosecuted." I said are any of them dead? He said, "No, why do you ask me that?" I said, "Well, as long as you're worked up, you might also want to get angry about the 300 plus homicides in south central this year of blacks killing each other. Just a thought." I walked away. Selective Outrage strike again.

 

[Brother John]

I doubt it. These things always begin with emotion first, and rational thought later.

"Don't confuse me with facts, I already know what happened."

Exactly Doc!!!!
People won't want to THINK about what happend, they'll only FEEL... and those who've made a living and a legacy on playing upon these sentiments to their political/social advantage (Sharpton et. al.) will drum it up to a fine frenzy. All rational thought will go out the window, the white racists beliefs will be reinforced and the society that NEEDS healing will have it's fresh wounds held open wide!

People should feel outrage about the nooses! It's VERY despicable! It shouldn't end at 'emotion'. The circus will only work on OLD fears & pains, there won't be reconciliation and even justice will take a backseat.
People should feel outrage about the beatings as well!

...sorry, rambling here....

Rational thought rarely prevails. People tend to have what I call "selective outrage." I went around with a neighbor of mine who was fuming about the "Jena 6." I asked him what he knew about the incident. All he knew is that some young blacks were being "wrongly prosecuted." I said are any of them dead? He said, "No, why do you ask me that?" I said, "Well, as long as you're worked up, you might also want to get angry about the 300 plus homicides in south central this year of blacks killing each other. Just a thought." I walked away. Selective Outrage strike again.

sad, but true!



Your Brother
John

 

[Big Don]

Well then, I guess I don't have to say anything. My only complaint is you missed a few.

I'm sorry, I am a poor (at best) typist and I am aware that websites have to worry about memory usage, else I'd have laid it all out...

 

[Tez3]

People will always get emotional about things like this, I'm not about this one because I've not read or seen anything about it and am distanced from it.I've been reading it out of interest.

The victim is an 'alleged' victim because it has to be proved that he was beaten up and the injuries not inflicted by someone or something else, false acusations aren't unknown, I believe someone mentioned a false rape allegation before. That may seem odd when you think he was injuried and it seems obvious to everyone what happened but if you were on a jury that's how you should start off thinking.It's probably a good place to start a discussion on the internet too.

I do think it's odd though that emotions have run high on this thread which in it's self isn't a bad thing but people have been attacking each other personally! Some have decided who is guilty and why, others have tried to provide a wider perspective and been attacked for it. I think the truth is that no one knows the truth nor is likely to now it's become a circus.

Righteous anger is fine, if you have all the facts. If what some have said on here is a reflection of the feelings of the local people who will presumably sit on a jury hearing this case I fear that justice will be not be done.

 

[Cruentus]

WOW!!
.....I did not know that Michael. THAT's not supposed to happen, juvenile records published!! That's why I assumed those were adult charges!

Well, now as I tell the local teenagers that I often have the chance to interact with for some of the community services that I do, you ALWAYS have to be concerned about your record, Juvenile or not. Young teens often don't think about how their actions will impact them down the line, and often need to be reminded.

Your juvenile record isn't wiped clean, despite what people commonly think, in that all that stuff will show up on background checks if you need any type of security clearance for any job, or if you apply to be a police officer, or military, etc. It's stored somewhere. You can expect that your record has been tracked for at least 10 years, juvenile or not.

So, the information on their juvenile records is available and usable for certain things, particularly security clearances and certain jobs. I just don't know the legalities or ethics behind publishing their records, or to what extent it can/should be usable in this case.

C.

 

[Doc]

Well, now as I tell the local teenagers that I often have the chance to interact with for some of the community services that I do, you ALWAYS have to be concerned about your record, Juvenile or not. Young teens often don't think about how their actions will impact them down the line, and often need to be reminded.

Your juvenile record isn't wiped clean, despite what people commonly think, in that all that stuff will show up on background checks if you need any type of security clearance for any job, or if you apply to be a police officer, or military, etc. It's stored somewhere. You can expect that your record has been tracked for at least 10 years, juvenile or not.

So, the information on their juvenile records is available and usable for certain things, particularly security clearances and certain jobs. I just don't know the legalities or ethics behind publishing their records, or to what extent it can/should be usable in this case.

C.

Well I can tell you, records can be sealed, but that doesn't mean they won't get looked at. They do not destroy criminal records ever.

 

[MJS]

For the record, you're no different than those that physically went into the bank according to the law. Likewise if they killed someone, you'd be charged with murder. So it goes back to the things our parents taught us. Choose your friends carefully, and walking is sometimes beter than riding.

I doubt it. These things always begin with emotion first, and rational thought later. I remember not too long a go a bunch of white guys were presumed guilty of raping a black stripper, even though there was no evidence. People marched, teams were suspended from athletics, etc. It was all a lie and now the prosecutor has been disbarred and is facing crimnal charges himself. When I discussed the case after looking into it, some people didn't want to hear it. There's an old law enforcement story about officers trying to tell some people what happened in an incident. The complaining person said, "Don't confuse me with facts, I already know what happened."

I hear you. Rational thought rarely prevails. People tend to have what I call "selective outrage." I went around with a neighbor of mine who was fuming about the "Jena 6." I asked him what he knew about the incident. All he knew is that some young blacks were being "wrongly prosecuted." I said are any of them dead? He said, "No, why do you ask me that?" I said, "Well, as long as you're worked up, you might also want to get angry about the 300 plus homicides in south central this year of blacks killing each other. Just a thought." I walked away. Selective Outrage strike again.

Agreed with everything you said sir. Thank you for your feedback. A voice of reason is always nice.

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

I hear you. Rational thought rarely prevails. People tend to have what I call "selective outrage." I went around with a neighbor of mine who was fuming about the "Jena 6." I asked him what he knew about the incident. All he knew is that some young blacks were being "wrongly prosecuted." I said are any of them dead? He said, "No, why do you ask me that?" I said, "Well, as long as you're worked up, you might also want to get angry about the 300 plus homicides in south central this year of blacks killing each other. Just a thought." I walked away. Selective Outrage strike again.

And I believe Philadelphia has had 400 black youths killed so far this year. And Baltimore is about 200 - maybe 250. This is horrible and should stop. There is, however, a difference between the human wreckage in South Central, and elsewhere, and what is taking place in Jena.

The 'system' is supposed to treat all of us the same, if we ever encounter it. In Jena, it seems that the system is being unusually aggressive toward these youths.

Now, it may be appropriate to find a way to have the system to become more proactive in South Central; or to at least find a way for the reactive nature of the system to be more effective at getting the bad guys off the streets; or the weapons out of their hands. Or, hell, just get the system working in that part of town again.

While we could be talking about two sides of the same coin, I think actually, we are talking about two different coins, all together.

 

[Doc]

And I believe Philadelphia has had 400 black youths killed so far this year. And Baltimore is about 200 - maybe 250. This is horrible and should stop. There is, however, a difference between the human wreckage in South Central, and elsewhere, and what is taking place in Jena.

The 'system' is supposed to treat all of us the same, if we ever encounter it. In Jena, it seems that the system is being unusually aggressive toward these youths.

Now, it may be appropriate to find a way to have the system to become more proactive in South Central; or to at least find a way for the reactive nature of the system to be more effective at getting the bad guys off the streets; or the weapons out of their hands. Or, hell, just get the system working in that part of town again.

While we could be talking about two sides of the same coin, I think actually, we are talking about two different coins, all together.

Not exactly. The system in South Central works just fine. The system doesn't kill, it controls and punishes. It is a statistical fact that 98% of all crimes against an ethnic group are committed by that same ethnic group, and that includes whites.

Therefore even with significant crime, we're only talking about a 2% variance outside the group. When people who commit crimes come in contact with the system, usually the witnesses against them are of the same ethnicity.

My problem is how people get worked up about 6 guys who are still alive who participated in the precipitation of their contact with the system. How that system is treating them is a matter of debate, but save some "outrage" for the hundreds of dead ones who died by the hand of someone from their own group, instead of being so outraged over what "might" be a problem with the system in that local. When someone young and innocent minding their own business gets killed standing at a bus stop, or walking home from school, simply because they were in the wrong place - start the outrage there. Until then the Jena 6 are on their own. Get pissed about the innocent first. Whatever they are, they are not "innocent."

When you kick the system, (do something to propel yourself into it) you take your chances. The system has a reasonable level of procedure under which it operates. It is not perfect. It, like life, has never been fair, and never will be. My Mom used to say, "When you go into Lions Den, you don't knopw the size of the lion. He may be a cub, or full grown. He could be sick or well. The best chance you have is to not go in."

I guarantee there has been crime in that area committed by blacks against blacks. Those victims don't seem to be as important as the Jena 6. Some are talking about the system and how it treats blacks. I'm talking about why blacks can only get outraged when they perceive an injustice from someone else. Injustice is injustice, no matter what the color, or where it comes from.

 

[michaeledward]

I don't know, Doc. If you think the system is working, after telling us of three hundred funerals for young black men in South Central, you and I have different definitions of working.

I am in no way pleased with those numbers ... but as you said, it is not the system killing those young men. But, neither is the system controlling or punishing appropriately in the community, apparently.

In Louisiana, the system seemed to be operating differently for the white folks. Mr. Sloan (white guy) got probation for cracking a guy over the head with a bottle. Mr. Bell (black guy) got 22 years (reduced from a possible 100 years) for throwing a punch that knocked a guy unconcious. Both preciptiated in their own participation in the system.


If you have an idea about what a white northeast liberal can do to help stop the killing in South Central or Philly, please let me know. Last time I heard, even a black Northeast Liberal (Mr. Bill Cosby) got grief for suggesting black-on-black crime and black culture needed serious attention.