Jena 6

[MJS]

There are 75 posts on this thread.

I was aware of the story prior to yesterday's news, but, in searching about for this discussion, I have learned much more today. You, yourself, said you had not heard of these events.

Apparently, the Reverands' involvement is accomplishing something.

It does seem unfortunate that regardless of the merit, or lack thereof, some people will immediately write off any event or situation they are involved in. I wonder if there is a word for that?

Well, Mike I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens. As we all should know by now, unless we have the ful story, there will always be speculation.

 

[michaeledward]

I don't want to detract nor sidetrack from the seriousness of this thread but there is one thing that really quite horrified me that has nothing to do with the case but I do have to wonder about it. Americans are obviously used to it but one of the statements said the victim went to the casualty department and was there for 2 and half hours and " the initial trip to the emergency room cost $5,467" That's nearly £3000, a fortune, approx 2-3 months pay for people here, for those working anyway. If you're not working and can't afford insurance life must be hard.

Didn't put this in for discussion really, just with everyone getting het up about human rights it horrified me that medical care could cost so much and good medical care is as much about human rights as anything.

Yes ... we of the leftist, socialist type of persuasion think that such costs should constitute a crime. As I understand, approximately half of that total was the combination of the ambulance trip, and a CT scan.

What makes the number so much more tolerable, is that 1 in 6 Americans has no health insurance. So, with 48 million or so fellow yanks without health insurance ... incredibly obscene numbers, such as those you list, are the least of our worries.

 

[MJS]

It would seem that your arms are very short.

While it may seem that the rap sheeet is short, whats really sad, is a kid his age is already starting off on the wrong foot.

 

[michaeledward]

It would seem that your arms are very short.

While it may seem that the rap sheeet is short, whats really sad, is a kid his age is already starting off on the wrong foot.

Although I recognize it is very inappropriate to ask, I would dearly like to know about these incidents.

Recall that the battery law says battery is "without the consent". So, was this battery as in Mr. Bell beating the crap out of some girls father? Or was he trying to put some moves on a white girl (Jena is 85% white), and have a suit thrown at him? The District Attorney claimed there were five "violent crimes" n the preceeding year, but I wonder if a 'criminal damage to property' qualifies as 'violent'?

Hell, I had my car vandalized last month. Certainly, it is a crime, but it is hardly violent. If I found the person who keyed my car, however, there might be some violence.

 

[MJS]

Although I recognize it is very inappropriate to ask, I would dearly like to know about these incidents.

Recall that the battery law says battery is "without the consent". So, was this battery as in Mr. Bell beating the crap out of some girls father? Or was he trying to put some moves on a white girl (Jena is 85% white), and have a suit thrown at him? The District Attorney claimed there were five "violent crimes" n the preceeding year, but I wonder if a 'criminal damage to property' qualifies as 'violent'?

Hell, I had my car vandalized last month. Certainly, it is a crime, but it is hardly violent. If I found the person who keyed my car, however, there might be some violence.

No idea Mike, I honestly have no idea. Without actually seeing the reports, the rap sheet, and knowing at least what the surrounding circumstances are, it'll be a mystery.

 

[Big Don]

The way I see it, unless someone has actually harmed people, there is NO excuse for attacking anyone. I haven't heard anyone accuse the white kid that was beaten by the SIX cowards of hanging any of the nooses. By that fact alone, the idea that the nooses should gain the six cowards any leinency should be out the window. Yes, it is sad that some people are *******s, but, that doesn't give us the right to beat them. If it did, there would be a hell of a lot of beaten people.

 

[michaeledward]

Mr. Barker was not one of the three who hung the nooses. He was friends with those who did.

Fights take place in schools every day. Are you suggesting that when a fight in a school occurs, that the possibility of a 22 year jail sentence is appropriate?

And, in this case, the alleged assailants have bail and bond requirements ranging from $70,000.00 to $130,000.00 ... A hundred grand bail, for a school yard fight. This is appropriate?

 

[MJS]

Mr. Barker was not one of the three who hung the nooses. He was friends with those who did.

Fights take place in schools every day. Are you suggesting that when a fight in a school occurs, that the possibility of a 22 year jail sentence is appropriate?

And, in this case, the alleged assailants have bail and bond requirements ranging from $70,000.00 to $130,000.00 ... A hundred grand bail, for a school yard fight. This is appropriate?

I'm not saying whether its right or wrong, as I, nor does anyone else really know the full details, but its very possible, and this is only a guess here, that jail time and bond is determined upon the nature of the charges. IMHO, this was not your typical school yard fight.

 

[michaeledward]

I'm not saying whether its right or wrong, as I, nor does anyone else really know the full details, but its very possible, and this is only a guess here, that jail time and bond is determined upon the nature of the charges. IMHO, this was not your typical school yard fight.

Why do you believe this was not a typical school yard fight?

 

[MJS]

Why do you believe this was not a typical school yard fight?

Lets see...in post 25 you stated this:

As others, elsewhere, have observed ... how often do high school fights, end up with felony attempted murder charges?

And in post 29, Jeff said this:

How often are school fights 6-on-1 stompings?

I think its pretty self-explanitory Mike. IMHO, this was not a fight, this was an assault. I've seen a few when I was in school, and I've taken calls for some at the high school in the city in which I work and I have yet to hear about one resulting in the injuries that were mentioned in the J6 case.

You may view this differently and thats fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

"Fights" in school are one thing. 6 guys kicking an unconscious kid is entirely another. And accused/charged is worlds away from convicted. And the charges have already been reduced, which isnt unusual in ANY court case. Minus the whole noose/tree thing this story would have gone nowhere.

 

[MJS]

"Fights" in school are one thing. 6 guys kicking an unconscious kid is entirely another. And accused/charge is worlds away from convicted. And the charges have already been reduced, which isnt unusual in ANY court case. Minus the whole noose/tree thing this story would have gone nowhere.

Agreed. There are disturbances everyday, many of which do not even end up on tv, let alone paper. Like you said, if the noose was never brought into play, this would most likely be an open/shut case.

 

[michaeledward]

Could the felony attempted murder charge be the result of a bigotted, racist District Attorney? Maybe there is an election coming up? The DA charged 'conspiracy to commit murder'. Didn't we just go through more than a year of personal destruction in North Carolina at the hands of an overzealous District Attorney? I bet multiple murder convictions would look real good on District Attorney Walters resume.

See this pen? I can end your lives with the stroke of a pen.

As for the six-on-one charges ... six people were arrested ... it does not follow that six people were involved in the fight.

What was the victims testimony, under oath? He claims he does not know who hit him, nor how many. (At the hospital, he claimed he was jumped by 15 guys - was he lying then, or is he lying now?)

I turned my back and somebody hit me, that's all I remember,

Ten supporting witnesses were called by the District Attorney. According to this report, there is some interesting conflicts among these witnesses.

http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=6719374

Ten white high school students appeared on the witness stand. Some said Bell was the one who struck Barker, others said they could not identify the person who knocked Barker down but that the attacker wore a green hooded jacket. The last of the 10, Jacob Hooter, said the person who struck Barker wore a red shirt. Hooter said Bell was present, but he did not see Bell hit or kick Barker.

Incidentally, Mr. Bell was wearing a black jacket that day, according to the reports I have read.



One of the charged students, Mr. Robert Bailey, has stated this ...

It was a rowdy day at school because of what had happened over the weekend,” {Bailey said of earlier fights at the Fair Barn and Gotta Go convenience store.} “The fight (with Justin) happened so quick. But those of us arrested weren’t even around. Once the fight broke out, we all ran to see what happened, but I wasn’t around when the fight happened.”

Again, racial tensions were running very high. A bunch of white kids accuse a bunch of black kids of beating up one of their own ... but under oath, and on the witness stand, they can't even agree the color of clothing the instigator was wearing.


As for the injuries ... please look at the images linked to upthread. Mr. Barker took some licks, no doubt. But, second degree aggrevated battery which requires a dangerous weapon; in this case, it is argued that a tennis shoe was that weapon (we can only assume that the tennis shoe was on a foot) ... I guess one needs to show up barefoot, if one wishes to avoid 22 years in jail.

 

[MJS]

Could the felony attempted murder charge be the result of a bigotted, racist District Attorney? Maybe there is an election coming up? The DA charged 'conspiracy to commit murder'. Didn't we just go through more than a year of personal destruction in North Carolina at the hands of an overzealous District Attorney? I bet multiple murder convictions would look real good on District Attorney Walters resume.

Mike, with all due respect here, this is getting a bit silly now, dont you think? I mean really, we can what if, maybe this, maybe that, blah blah all day long. This is pure speculation at this point, I'm sorry to say.

As for the six-on-one charges ... six people were arrested ... it does not follow that six people were involved in the fight.

Did you see post 96?

What was the victims testimony, under oath? He claims he does not know who hit him, nor how many. (At the hospital, he claimed he was jumped by 15 guys - was he lying then, or is he lying now?)

Again, I refer you back to post 96. It states:

The "Jena 6" attack took place on 4 December 2006 at the high school. During a fight that broke out in the lunchroom between a white student and a black student, the white student was hit from behind, knocked out, then set upon by other black students who proceeded to kick and stomp his "lifeless" body as he lay unconscious on the floor. The victim, Justin Barker, spent about three hours in an emergency room being treated for injuries to his head and face.

If he was in fact hit from behind, and lost consciousness, how can he know how many people?

Ten supporting witnesses were called by the District Attorney. According to this report, there is some interesting conflicts among these witnesses.

http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=6719374



Incidentally, Mr. Bell was wearing a black jacket that day, according to the reports I have read.

Please tell me Mike that you're not using this as reliable evidence are you? Interesting how I can take a call for a large disturbance involving 30 people, someone else takes a call saying there are weapons, someone else says there are no weapons, someone else says its only 10 people.

Again, racial tensions were running very high. A bunch of white kids accuse a bunch of black kids of beating up one of their own ... but under oath, and on the witness stand, they can't even agree the color of clothing the instigator was wearing.

See my above comment.

As for the injuries ... please look at the images linked to upthread. Mr. Barker took some licks, no doubt. But, second degree aggrevated battery which requires a dangerous weapon; in this case, it is argued that a tennis shoe was that weapon (we can only assume that the tennis shoe was on a foot) ... I guess one needs to show up barefoot, if one wishes to avoid 22 years in jail.

This discussion has really gone south. As I said many times, its ALL speculation. Unless we were there, relying on things that were linked here, is really not 100%, yet it seems that some people insist on using that evidence as fact.

I give up.

 

[michaeledward]

Why is it that every thing that points to complete and total guilt of the young black men is beyond question, and every point that addresses the credibility and claims of the accusation is 'a bit silly' and 'speculation'?

EDIT - Incidentally ... much of what I am presenting is not, in any way ~ speculation. It is from the trial transcripts and records. Where I speculate, and hypothesis, I believe I have made it clear that they are my suggestions of possibilities. END EDIT



The news report that you question as un-'reliable evidence', was a report of conflicting witness testimony at the trial.



Do you know how many defense witnesses Mr. Bell's court appointed attorney called on behalf of his defense?

 

[michaeledward]

Quote:
The "Jena 6" attack took place on 4 December 2006 at the high school. During a fight that broke out in the lunchroom between a white student and a black student, the white student was hit from behind, knocked out, then set upon by other black students who proceeded to kick and stomp his "lifeless" body as he lay unconscious on the floor. The victim, Justin Barker, spent about three hours in an emergency room being treated for injuries to his head and face.

If he was in fact hit from behind, and lost consciousness, how can he know how many people?

So, based on what are you arging that all six arrested were involved? There is no claim in this paragraph of the number of students involved in the attack.

It appears that the arguement being made is that the young men were arrested and charged, and therefore they must all be guilty.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry for popping up again but the odd thing I notice is that no one uses the word "alleged". Over here the presumption is of innocence until proved guilty as I know it is over there so when anyone talks of something like this and that would include all the posters here they have to use the word alleged. The 'alleged' attack, the 'alleged' attackers even the 'alleged' victim.

This is done to indicate that it is for the court to decide the truth not the media or people stirring things up for either side. It's to indicate that eveidence has to be presented to prove guilt not for anyone to presume it. It's also to indicate that the public and the media have no way of knowing the truth until all the evidence is presented. It's used to indicate that we are being fair or at least trying to be.

 

[MJS]

Why is it that every thing that points to complete and total guilt of the young black men is beyond question, and every point that addresses the credibility and claims of the accusation is 'a bit silly' and 'speculation'?

EDIT - Incidentally ... much of what I am presenting is not, in any way ~ speculation. It is from the trial transcripts and records. Where I speculate, and hypothesis, I believe I have made it clear that they are my suggestions of possibilities. END EDIT



The news report that you question as un-'reliable evidence', was a report of conflicting witness testimony at the trial.



Do you know how many defense witnesses Mr. Bell's court appointed attorney called on behalf of his defense?

Mike, my point, in cases like this, in cases like the Taser incident of the student at the John Kerry function, is this: unless we have something that is original, the weight it holds is cut in half right off the bat IMO. Are you saying that you rely on a police report that was given to the press, which they publish, as the solid proof of what happened? How do we know that things were not edited? We dont and thats my point.

So, based on what are you arging that all six arrested were involved? There is no claim in this paragraph of the number of students involved in the attack.

It appears that the arguement being made is that the young men were arrested and charged, and therefore they must all be guilty.

If I was in a car with 3 other people and they decide to rob a bank, while I sit in the car, we get pulled over by the cops and I swear on a stack of bibles that I never went into the bank, do you think they're going to take my word?

Like I said Mike, this thread is 8 pages of back and forth, back and forth. We all have our opinions and I stand by mine. Simply hanging a noose does not constitute a beating. Nobody was physically hurt from that, but someone sure was hurt in that beating. People can march until their legs fall off, but until the state, the politicians or whoever, does something, nothing will change. I have to wonder if all these people that are marching, knew the full story.

On that note, I think I'm going to bow out of this thread for now.

 

[Big Don]

Sorry for popping up again but the odd thing I notice is that no one uses the word "alleged". Over here the presumption is of innocence until proved guilty as I know it is over there so when anyone talks of something like this and that would include all the posters here they have to use the word alleged. The 'alleged' attack, the 'alleged' attackers even the 'alleged' victim.

This is done to indicate that it is for the court to decide the truth not the media or people stirring things up for either side. It's to indicate that eveidence has to be presented to prove guilt not for anyone to presume it. It's also to indicate that the public and the media have no way of knowing the truth until all the evidence is presented. It's used to indicate that we are being fair or at least trying to be.

That the six are the attackers has been alleged, that the victim was attacked is not alleged.

 

[Mark L]

Why is it that every thing that points to complete and total guilt of the young black men is beyond question, and every point that addresses the credibility and claims of the accusation is 'a bit silly' and 'speculation'?

EDIT - Incidentally ... much of what I am presenting is not, in any way ~ speculation. It is from the trial transcripts and records. Where I speculate, and hypothesis, I believe I have made it clear that they are my suggestions of possibilities. END EDIT



The news report that you question as un-'reliable evidence', was a report of conflicting witness testimony at the trial.



Do you know how many defense witnesses Mr. Bell's court appointed attorney called on behalf of his defense?

What about the victim? What did he do to deserve being beaten by 1, 2, 3, or more? You're well informed, right? So tell me why this kid shouldn't expect the justice system to put these dickheads away for a long, long time. You posted links to photos of his injuries, right? Maybe they don't look severe enough to warrant 22 years, at least to you. What about the concussion he sustained? Do you know that his brain has not been affected? Now or in the future?

There have been discussions on this and other MA forums about what we as trained fighters can and can't do when confronted with violence. The prevailing advice I've gleaned is that if you are confronted by multiple attackers your life is in grave danger, do what it takes to survive the encounter. Those six black kids put their victim in grave danger, they should get exactly what they deserve. Their race is entirely irrelevant.