Jena 6

[Mark L]

Those images are quite disturbing. They are also decades old, at least 4 and probably more based on the dress. Please don't misunderstand me, I think the placement of nooses in that tree was a despicable act. I just don't believe that it was a serious threat, one that carried the possibility of an imminent hanging.

 

[Brother John]

It would seem that your arms are very short.

Oh, I guess that first statement was hyperbole, right?

True, those aren't very many charges.
But might want to bear in mind that those are his adult charges ONLY. According to what I'd read (don't remember where to be honest) he had an extensive juvenile record as well, though of course we'd not be able to dig up those records now.

The fact that he has a previous record, long or short, violent crimes or not, doesn't mean he's guilty in this or future crimes...
it just reflects on the judges choices in sentencing.

Your Brother
John

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Those images are quite disturbing. They are also decades old, at least 4 and probably more based on the dress. Please don't misunderstand me, I think the placement of nooses in that tree was a despicable act. I just don't believe that it was a serious threat, one that carried the possibility of an imminent hanging.

Exactly, all very dramatic but how does any of it justify cold cocking a kid from behind and stomping him into unconscious? Very disturbing interpretation of justifiable use of force on a martial arts board.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

So whats the debate here? Are you saying these kids didnt commit a crime. That 6 guys didnt stomp a victim into unconsciousness? If they DID do this are you saying there should be no repurcussions? Just "Free the Jena 6" the beaten kid deserves no justice?

 

[Skip Cooper]

Those images are quite disturbing. They are also decades old, at least 4 and probably more based on the dress. Please don't misunderstand me, I think the placement of nooses in that tree was a despicable act. I just don't believe that it was a serious threat, one that carried the possibility of an imminent hanging.

What is disturbing to me, is that you so easily write off the pictures because they seem to be decades old. Who cares how old they are?

The problem lies in the fact that you are removed from the situation. If you are not living under the racial tension that exists in Jena, then how can you determine what is a serious threat?

What we have here in Jena seems to be the acts of juveniles on both sides. Why are we not looking at the parents and questioning their motivations? I am sure they are good church going people, have they forgotten the lessons they learn on Sunday?

 

[Makalakumu]

So whats the debate here? Are you saying these kids didnt commit a crime. That 6 guys didnt stomp a victim into unconsciousness? If they DID do this are you saying there should be no repurcussions? Just "Free the Jena 6" the beaten kid deserves no justice?

Let me clarify. The Jena 6 committed a crime, but I think the provocation needs to be taken into account when justice is applied.

Perhaps, the image of a noose hanging in a tree is just not something that we can understand. I will speak for myself. I am white. When I see a noose hanging in a tree, intellectually, I am repelled. Emotionally, I am incensed.

But I know that the image will never convey the "punch in the stomach" feel it must transmit to a black man. The lack of visceral reaction is because I just don't have the experience that a black man does. I and my family never had to live with that terror.

Does that make more sense?

 

[michaeledward]

True, those aren't very many charges.
But might want to bear in mind that those are his adult charges ONLY. According to what I'd read (don't remember where to be honest) he had an extensive juvenile record as well, though of course we'd not be able to dig up those records now.

The fact that he has a previous record, long or short, violent crimes or not, doesn't mean he's guilty in this or future crimes...
it just reflects on the judges choices in sentencing.

Your Brother
John

John, you are incorrect with your ascertions.

Those charges are his juvenile charges, not his adult charges. Which is why I find it curious that they were first released by a Deputy Clerk, and that they were used as part of a Bond Hearing in this trial.

Mr. Bell was a juvenile when the incident in question occurred.

The District Attorney brought charges of Attempted Murder. In Louisiana, the crime of attempted murder, if charged against a person 15 years or older, must be brought before an adult court.

Before the trial commenced, the charge of Attempted Murder was reduced. With the reduction of the charge, the legal proceeding should have been referred back to the juvenile court.

I believe the Louisiana 3rd Circuit State Court of Appeals has ruled that it was inappropriate to continue the case in the adult court, and has overturned the conviction. Mr. Bell remains in custody awaiting further appeals/reviews.

Mr. Bell will not turn 18 until January of next year.

 

[michaeledward]

Exactly, all very dramatic but how does any of it justify cold cocking a kid from behind and stomping him into unconscious? Very disturbing interpretation of justifiable use of force on a martial arts board.

According to testimony, the blow from behind knocked Mr. Barker unconcious. The evidence of "stomping" is minimal.

I guess hyperbole works well for you.

 

[michaeledward]

So whats the debate here? Are you saying these kids didnt commit a crime. That 6 guys didnt stomp a victim into unconsciousness? If they DID do this are you saying there should be no repurcussions? Just "Free the Jena 6" the beaten kid deserves no justice?

I'm not certain that anyone in this thread has said "Free the Jena 6". It might be interesting to see ... why did you put quotes around that?

From my point of view, the debate is injustice in the charges, injustice in the trial proceeding, and injustice in the sentencing.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/jena6.asp

The "Jena 6" attack took place on 4 December 2006 at the high school. During a fight that broke out in the lunchroom between a white student and a black student, the white student was hit from behind, knocked out, then set upon by other black students who proceeded to kick and stomp his "lifeless" body as he lay unconscious on the floor. The victim, Justin Barker, spent about three hours in an emergency room being treated for injuries to his head and face.

That assault resulted in five of the black teens involved being charged, as adults, with attempted second-degree murder and given bonds ranging from $70,000 to $138,000. A sixth teen was charged as a juvenile. Two of the Jena 6 defendants had been part of the threesome involved in the Gotta-Go Grocery incident, which is why their bonds were significantly higher: the bonds so assigned covered both sets of charges.

Mychal Bell, the only one of the Jena 6 to be tried so far, was convicted in June 2007 on a reduced charge of aggravated second-degree battery. He is scheduled to be sentenced on 20 September 2007, when he could possibly be given a term of up to 22 years in prison.

Prosecutors in his case revealed the teen had been convicted as a juvenile for attacking someone a year prior to the Jena 6 assault, then committed three more crimes while on probation for that one, which meant the Jena 6verdict marked his fifth conviction for violent crimes. These prior acts were taken into account by the judge when the question arose of reducing Bell's $90,000 bond.

Hyperbole ? The stomping seems pretty well established to me. And perhaps my arms are "short" but considering my "history" is a few traffic tickets.....I guess 4-5 violent crime arrests arent significant to some folks. And since hes the only one tried so far, we dont know anything about anybody else yet.

The quotes are what the protesters in Jena are chanting.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Let me clarify. The Jena 6 committed a crime, but I think the provocation needs to be taken into account when justice is applied.

"provocation" when what happens is a few punches thrown? Perhaps. "provocation" when an unconscious kid is kicked by 6 people? What sort of justifiable force training do you teach your students?

 

[Mark L]

What is disturbing to me, is that you so easily write off the pictures because they seem to be decades old. Who cares how old they are?

The problem lies in the fact that you are removed from the situation. If you are not living under the racial tension that exists in Jena, then how can you determine what is a serious threat?

What we have here in Jena seems to be the acts of juveniles on both sides. Why are we not looking at the parents and questioning their motivations? I am sure they are good church going people, have they forgotten the lessons they learn on Sunday?

You don't know anything about me, so don't ever assume I'm writing off lynchings (no matter when they occured). That is the epitomy of arrogance, to feign knowledge of anothers' thoughts. Why don't you tell me when the last lynching of a black man by a white man occured? Then we can talk about how imminent the threat was.

You, too, are removed from the situation. Your bio says you're in La Porte, TX. Jena, LA is 263 miles away (according to mapquest), so perhaps your not as in tuned as you think. NYC is 205 miles from me, I wouldn't pretend to be more in touch with what's going on in the Bronx than you, simply because I'm geographically closer.

I will agree, vigorously, with your point on the parenting of both the black and white kids involved. I would extend the criticism to the teachers, administrators, school board, town administration, community leaders, and the police

 

[michaeledward]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/jena6.asp

Hyperbole ? The stomping seems pretty well established to me. And perhaps my arms are "short" but considering my "history" is a few traffic tickets.....I guess 4-5 violent crime arrests arent significant to some folks. And since hes the only one tried so far, we dont know anything about anybody else yet.

The quotes are what the protesters in Jena are chanting.

A visit to www.pursuingholiness.com offers some interesting observations, that seem to be pretty free from rhetoric. This link that follows shows the source of some of those comments you are relying on. It appears that snopes article may not actually be witnessed by reliable sources.

http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/06/27/jena-six-justin-barker-testifies-at-mychal-bell-trial/

This link actually shows the injuries suffered by Mr. Barker.

http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/09/04/the-jena-6-photo-of-justin-barkers-injuries/



As for the 'free the Jena 6' ... the six young men have apparently spent the last nine months in jail, being unable to post bail or bond for the charges of attempted murder.

If the charges are changed from attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder (conspiracy, really?), would the bail requirements be so high?

 

[Makalakumu]

"provocation" when what happens is a few punches thrown? Perhaps. "provocation" when an unconscious kid is kicked by 6 people? What sort of justifiable force training do you teach your students?

Not that, of course! The six people who attacked the one are clearly in the wrong. However, there ARE extenuating circumstances.

 

[Makalakumu]

I will agree, vigorously, with your point on the parenting of both the black and white kids involved. I would extend the criticism to the teachers, administrators, school board, town administration, community leaders, and the police

:yoda:

 

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[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/04/charges_reduced_in_jena_6_attack/

The six black students were accused of beating and kicking Barker on Dec. 4. A motive for the attack was never established. Barker was treated at a hospital emergency room and released after about three hours

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20218937/site/newsweek/page/0/

In the ensuing months, black and white students clashed violently, the school's academic wing was destroyed by arson and six black kids were charged with attempted murder for beating a white peer. (The "deadly weapon": tennis shoes they supposedly used to kick the white student knocked unconscious by the first punch.)

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070825/NEWS03/708250353

LaSalle District Attorney Reed Walters pointed out that Bell was placed on probation until his 18th birthday — Jan. 18, 2008 — after an incident of battery Dec. 25, 2005. After being placed on probation, he was adjudicated of three other crimes, the two in September and another charge of criminal damage to property that occurred on July 25, 2006.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I do agree with one point though. "Attempted murder"? I would think that would hinge on proving that these kids INTENDED to kill someone. I could see assault, gang assault, some sort of reckless injury charge. Murder is a reach. BUT I believe that those charges have all been reduced right?

MY issue is how these hooligans are being held up as some sort of modern day Rosa Parks. If you are going to hold up someone as an example of racial injustice and make Icons out of them THESE are NOT the people I would choose. And I wouldnt be trying to minimize the seriousness of implication that a gang assault is proper repayment for a symbolic gesture (nooses). From Rosa and MLK, we have degenerated to Tawana Brawley and the Jena 6.

 

[michaeledward]

MY issue is how these hooligans are being held up as some sort of modern day Rosa Parks.

I think the comparison is to the injustices suffered.

Would you agree that Mrs. Parks suffered an injustice for not moving when additional whites got on the bus?

She was sitting in the section of the bus that allowed black persons. When the 'White Only' section of the bus got filled, it was custom for the black persons on the bus to move further back, or stand. For refusing to move or stand, Mrs. Parks was arrested.

In this instance; white boys who beat up black boys got probation. Black boys who beat up white boys get a possible twenty-two year jail sentence. Is that "Equal Justice Under the Law"?

Can you agree that the inequity of treatment is an injustice?

14th Amendment to the United States Constitution
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
​

 

[Tez3]

I don't want to detract nor sidetrack from the seriousness of this thread but there is one thing that really quite horrified me that has nothing to do with the case but I do have to wonder about it. Americans are obviously used to it but one of the statements said the victim went to the casualty department and was there for 2 and half hours and " the initial trip to the emergency room cost $5,467" That's nearly £3000, a fortune, approx 2-3 months pay for people here, for those working anyway. If you're not working and can't afford insurance life must be hard.

Didn't put this in for discussion really, just with everyone getting het up about human rights it horrified me that medical care could cost so much and good medical care is as much about human rights as anything.

Just a thought, you can carry on getting mad at each other now!