"It's in there!"

[Hand Sword]

Just thought I'd throw this out to everyone since I'm still seeing resistance to ground fighting practice or adoption of those techniques. Instead I've heard that "it's in there!" and any technique can be adapted to the ground.
(just a note, most of these claims I've heard in person, not so much in these forums-so, not attacking anyone )

With this said, I'm curious about others opinions about our standing techniques and their adaptation to fighting on the ground. So, any Kem(n)po practitoners, SKK, Tracy's, Ed Parker's, Kajukenbo, etc... feel free to chime in with a DM, Combination, Technique, "Kempos", etc.. and say how it applies to the ground, say from being on the bottom of a mount position (or derivation of one) and about to be pounded.

Any takers?

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
ok,now WHERE are you seeing this resistance? At your own school?
Have you yourself attempted to adapt your Shaolin Kempo techniques to either the mount or guard position?
The application of ground techniques has always been part of the formula of the creation of any given TAI technique. Please look at Mr. German's "Kenpo Jujutsu Connection" DVD from Century for greater insight into this system's approach.
There are other techniques that cn be applied to the guard position [EP's Parting wings" or "tracy's "Flashing daggers" come to mind.other techniques such as mace of aggression can be used to buckle an opponent's arms as well.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS:Try combo 3 from the ground in the guard osition [w/ the groin shot]

Just thought I'd throw this out to everyone since I'm still seeing resistance to ground fighting practice or adoption of those techniques. Instead I've heard that "it's in there!" and any technique can be adapted to the ground.
(just a note, most of these claims I've heard in person, not so much in these forums-so, not attacking anyone )

With this said, I'm curious about others opinions about our standing techniques and their adaptation to fighting on the ground. So, any Kem(n)po practitoners, SKK, Tracy's, Ed Parker's, Kajukenbo, etc... feel free to chime in with a DM, Combination, Technique, "Kempos", etc.. and say how it applies to the ground, say from being on the bottom of a mount position (or derivation of one) and about to be pounded.

Any takers?

 

[LawDog]

The problem with Kempo/Kenpo ground techniques are not the techniques themselves, it lies in another area, Footwork.
Most think of footwork as being done in a verticle position which is incorrect. Footwork, ground or standing, is when a person moves from one position to another.
Verticle footwork, this is done with a persons legs or knees.
Horizontal footwork, this is done by using the four main control points on your torso, and or combined with your head, hands, elbows, legs, knees etc,
So Kempo/Kenpo techniques have to be altered to fit with the type of footwork that is needed when in these various positions.
The problem is, most of the time, Kempo/Kenpo students/instructions do not use the correct footwork. The reason for this is in the lack of understanding ground motion(footwork).
Just my point of view, no bashing intended.

 

[Thesemindz]

There are many techniques in the kenpo system which contain motion, or concepts, or strikes and grapples which can be applied in a Ground Fighting confrontation.


Take the very first technique, Delayed Sword. Imagine an opponent in the mount position. You attempt to execute a basic Rolling Mount Escape (Upa) and your opponent braces against the roll with his right hand. Execute a Hammerfist to the opponent's right bicep and Handsword the opponent's neck (sternocleidomastoid). Then grab his shoulder and thrust into the roll again while explosively drawing him down and over.


Other techniques can be used as entry techniques into mount escapes. Take the first few moves of Alternating Maces. The opponent is in the mount and with his hands extended (choking, grabbing, striking). Execute the Half Downward Block, adapt the Punch into a collar grab, and use the Backnuckle to drive your opponent over sideways, extending the opposite leg and creating an opportunity for a Sliding Knee Mount Escape (Shrimping).


The opening arm motion in Circling Wing can be used to trap the opponent's arm for an escape. The defensive motion from Captured Leaves and Clutching Feathers are just as effective in the guard or mount, and many other positions, from 12 or 6. Lone Kimono, Five Swords, and Raining Claw all teach strikes and concepts which can be very effective on the ground, both offensively and defensively. Cover up his eyes.


Much of the body movement on the ground is very similar to the movements in traditional American Kenpo. You're still a human body. The Laws of Physics still apply. Begin just by sitting on an opponent's chest, then use your knees to move up and down across your opponent's torso. Then practice it arms pinned, or facing away, or going from Side Control, to Mount, to Side Control on the opposite side. Then try crawling across your opponent. Try laying your chest on their opponent and going into plank position to drive into their lungs, or relaxing to hold them to the ground. You need to spend some serious time working on the body to get good at fighting, regardless of the range.


Try getting down on the grounds on all fours and kicking your leg under your body while swinging your opposite arm over your head. Now you're facing up, in a crab-walk position. Repeat the movement to flip over. Now practice it with an enemy aggressing on you, standing or on the ground. Add in crawling face up or face down. Practice the movements to escape, practice them to strike, practice them to get behind your opponent. Practice fighting from a crab position, and a dog position, and the fetal position, against multiple opponent's. Lay down on the ground and have someone lay down next to you and then try to engage in Karate Style Point Sparring while laying on your side.


In the end, Close Range Striking is Close Range Striking. It's all about controlling space and seizing small opportunities. Practice Grabbing your opponent's shoulder from the front with a Crossed Double Wrist Grab, and then cant your top wrist forward so that you are Striking your opponent in the jaw or neck while you press into your opponent with your bottom wrist. See how much power you can generate from that position.


At close range, Grappling techniques are going to be paramount, whether you're standing or lying down, in top or bottom position. But Striking can serve all the same purposes it does at long range, controlling space, inflicting injury, and creating openings, and be just as effective. Many of the same weapons work, and the same basics of force and leverage apply. It's a matter of generating force with micro-movements, which should be a part of your long range striking as well.


I used to set a loosely swinging door with a pillow or laundry basket behind it. Then I'd place my fingertips against the door with my arm relaxed and my palm vertical. I'd flex my hand forward, and strike the door, sending it crashing back into my obstruction and bouncing back to my hand. Practice this with every hand formulation you know, and with your elbows, and your feet, and your knee, and your shoulder. Practicing standing against the bag, or a wall, or an opponent, and striking. Work on combinations. Then you can strike effectively with small movements.


Oh, and don't forget pinching, poking, grinding, biting, and headbutting.


To me, the biggest difference is the way you use your energy. Standing Striking is all about fluidity and freedom of motion. It is about sustained low levels of energy and occasional bursts of speed. But on the ground, it's about learning to completely relax the parts of your body you aren't using and expending energy in very specific controlled instances. If the opponent is past your legs, relax them. Just let them lay. Until you need to use them to move again, or to Strike. When standing you need to use your entire body to generate force to Strike. But on the ground, those long chains of movement are broken. You are striking with your limbs, and it is much more about Independent Motion than Whole Body Synergy.


Instead of using your entire body to generate the force like you do on your feet, relax everything except for one weapon, and practice striking at targets without using any other muscle groups. Not your back, not your hips, just your arm and shoulder. Learn to move smoothly between both types of generating force. Practice the same thing on your feet. And with them.


I think some people get confused because they're looking for Ground Fighting in their kenpo on a macro level. Why can't I lay on my back and do Long Form Four. That's not where you should look. It's in the little things, and it's everywhere. Take every technique you learn, master it, and then lay down on the ground and have someone sit on you and try the same blocks and strikes. And then switch positions and try them again. See if the same targets are there or not, practice the movements against resistance. Motion is ambiguous. Is that arm moving to strike, grapple, hook, or defend? Where can you kick on the ground? What can you kick on the ground?


The issue isn't that nothing in kenpo translates to the ground, it's simply not being taught, and many people don't explore or understand it. Ultimately, I think a lot of people just don't want to lay on the floor. But that's where the answers are.




-Rob

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Think of it this way: stand-up fighting is to ground-fighting what walking is to swimming.

The rules of physics apply the same way to walking as they do to swimming. All of the same principles and motions you use to walk can be applied to swimming. However, if you don't have someone teach you how to swim, and you don't practice swimming, you are likely to get in serious trouble in deep rushing water.

Same thing for stand-up fighting and ground fighting. If nobody shows you specifically how to apply principles on the ground, and if you don't practice them, you will drown.

 

[MJS]

Just thought I'd throw this out to everyone since I'm still seeing resistance to ground fighting practice or adoption of those techniques. Instead I've heard that "it's in there!" and any technique can be adapted to the ground.
(just a note, most of these claims I've heard in person, not so much in these forums-so, not attacking anyone )

With this said, I'm curious about others opinions about our standing techniques and their adaptation to fighting on the ground. So, any Kem(n)po practitoners, SKK, Tracy's, Ed Parker's, Kajukenbo, etc... feel free to chime in with a DM, Combination, Technique, "Kempos", etc.. and say how it applies to the ground, say from being on the bottom of a mount position (or derivation of one) and about to be pounded.

Any takers?

We have defenses against grappling, punches, kicks, weapons, etc., so yes, on face value, 'its all in there.' However, IMO, its only there on a limited basis. This is why I look outside of the art, to arts that specialize in the areas that I want to look deeper into.

So, the question is...can I take a tech and make it work against someone with no ground experience? Can I make that same tech work against someone with ground experience?

This isn't to say that every person who attacks me is going to be Leo Gaje and Royce Gracies evil twins...lol...but for me, I'd rather be safe than sorry. Given the popularity of MMA today, yeah, I think its very possible to face someone with some MMA/ground experience.

 

[James Kovacich]

The issue isn't that nothing in kenpo translates to the ground, it's simply not being taught, and many people don't explore or understand it. Ultimately, I think a lot of people just don't want to lay on the floor. But that's where the answers are.




-Rob

http://www.jeffspeakman.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=36

American Kenpo version 5.0 is the hybrid of the last generation version of American Kenpo taught directly from Senior Grand Master Ed Parker to Jeff Speakman and ground fighting brought into the equation by several of Mr. Speakman’s students training and experiences as well as Mr. Speakman’s continued studies of Brazilian Ju Jitsu from his instructor Mr. Todd Nathanson. Approximately 30 new techniques have been created replacing dated or in-congruent techniques within the existing system. In addition another 30 techniques have been altered in varying degrees to accommodate the same thinking.

It is important to recognize that this is not grappling or cage fighting but an expanding philosophy of Kenpo to produce the Kenpo ground system coupled with training drills and sparring techniques. It is modifying the existing 4.0 system while remaining completely within the combat models and thinking of American Kenpo to address the increasing and prevalent void of ground fighting in the Kenpo world. By keeping within these models of Kenpo we have been able to develop a system combining the better of these two worlds to give our students the maximum ability to deal with the very real possibilities of becoming involved in these kinds of altercations. In addition, it allows us to continue to develop ourselves within the mind-body-spirit paradigm to reach a higher level of individual performance and sustained excellence therefore strengthening the group as a whole.

 

[Yondanchris]

Ditto,

I begain ground training at yellow belt, and I ensure my students are apt at grappling as much as techniques and Katas. Most Ken(m)po Dojos are teaching ground techniques, if not they really need to take a inventory of the reality of streetfights and the neccessity of grappling.

My humble and ignorant .02 cents,

Chris

We have defenses against grappling, punches, kicks, weapons, etc., so yes, on face value, 'its all in there.' However, IMO, its only there on a limited basis. This is why I look outside of the art, to arts that specialize in the areas that I want to look deeper into.

So, the question is...can I take a tech and make it work against someone with no ground experience? Can I make that same tech work against someone with ground experience?

This isn't to say that every person who attacks me is going to be Leo Gaje and Royce Gracies evil twins...lol...but for me, I'd rather be safe than sorry. Given the popularity of MMA today, yeah, I think its very possible to face someone with some MMA/ground experience.

 

[seasoned]

Think of it this way: stand-up fighting is to ground-fighting what walking is to swimming.

The rules of physics apply the same way to walking as they do to swimming. All of the same principles and motions you use to walk can be applied to swimming. However, if you don't have someone teach you how to swim, and you don't practice swimming, you are likely to get in serious trouble in deep rushing water.

Same thing for stand-up fighting and ground fighting. If nobody shows you specifically how to apply principles on the ground, and if you don't practice them, you will drown.

Pop in more often Alan, you have a lot to contribute.

 

[Entryteam]

I have been teaching Kenpo for 15 years, and teaching/coaching brazilian jiujitsu for almost 10. It's "not in there". Alan is certainly correct. You MUST be training to fight on the ground to know how to fight on the ground... you cannot just "insert your favorite technique" and hope for the best.

I agree with you, Alan... and Im glad you chimed in.

Think of it this way: stand-up fighting is to ground-fighting what walking is to swimming.

The rules of physics apply the same way to walking as they do to swimming. All of the same principles and motions you use to walk can be applied to swimming. However, if you don't have someone teach you how to swim, and you don't practice swimming, you are likely to get in serious trouble in deep rushing water.

Same thing for stand-up fighting and ground fighting. If nobody shows you specifically how to apply principles on the ground, and if you don't practice them, you will drown.

 

[Carol]

Several years ago, I decided to intensively brush up on my Spanish, due to some opportunities to use it professionally. I did. At a later date, I was sent to Montreal on business and....much to my surprise, I could recognize a lot of French. Between the common roots shared with the Spanish language and the English language, I had little issue with reading basic signage, menus in restaurants, and could even get the gist of a few newspaper articles.

However, I can't speak French. If someone comes up and says something to me, I can't understand it. If I had a French word right in front of me, I could not pronounce it properly. My pronunciation is so hideous, not even people knowing what I was trying to say could figure out what I mean. And, I couldn't speak a word for myself. I don't know how to say "My name is Carol" in French.

I would truly like to improve my French someday. But I plan on doing that by taking a French class, not by taking more Spanish classes.

Similarities are not enough, and similarities never account for the important stuff that's completely different.

 

[Josh Oakley]

"It's in there", is often said by the same instructors how tend to say "It's a guard". Some of it can be adapted to the ground, but the core material is not necessarily designed for the ground. I ran a USSD dojo for couple of years, and we did a good amount of ground work. BUT, all the grappling material I've seen had little to do with the Shaolin Kempo core material.

I've heard the "it's in there" line as well, but I haven't found a real answer for any time I've responded with "where?"

 

[Zoran]

"It's in there", is just a way of saying, I don't care about ground defense enough to look beyond what I already know.

From one perspective, it is in there. If some thug jumps on top of you and starts swinging, you can probably get away with one already knows. Blocking, eye gouging, and etc. can be easily employed.

However, we train for the worst case scenario in most cases. Yet many do not understand at least the basics of ground defense. I've heard it said you should know enough of the other guys system to be able to fight the other guy. There are many things that you could do wrong and put you in a bad position. For example, if someone has you in a closed guard, reaching for that persons face to poke them in the eye could have you taking a long nap or a broken arm.

I like keeping it fairly simple. I do not want to win matches or trophies. I just want to be able to go home to my wife and child. Understanding the basics of ground defense helps you in this. It has also helped me quickly nullify some situations I found myself in during my bouncing days.