ITF practitioners

[Kong]

we do call them hyung...btw, do you know why your instructor still uses them while in the wtf??

Yes, this seems kind of strange doesn`t it? It sure had myself confused when I was first starting out,,,My master is pretty old, and very traditional, and he was thaught the Hyungs when he was young, and has been training them all his life. So he feels the Hyungs are the traditional way of forms training, and that they give more back to the student then Poomse training,,,wich he feels is sort of lacking in technique and power (he once stated poomse is designed for kids, to make TKD easy to learn and popularize).
The reason we`re in the WTF is to be able to compete on a larger scale in sparring.
I also train with another school now, that does Poomse, so I sort of get the best of both worlds.
:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ya Kong we compete full contact at the black belt level. Colour belt competition is a different story. I've heard things are different in the States (because people sue the poo out of eachother there) but in Canada the black belt competition is full contact. Having said that....... the official rules on paper say semi contact..... but if I go into the ring and spar semi contact at my level my opponent will eat me alive. People get knocked out on a regular basis at tournaments, the only time a judge seems to say anything about it is at smaller low level tournaments. You might get a warning at a small tournament for plowing your fist into your opponents face, but if your opponent can't continue... you just won. I don't know if on paper they say semi contact for insurance purposes but I have never seen a semi contact black belt competition in the ITF.

Just a curious question... do white and yellow belts spar full contact at tournaments in WTF? Do 6 year old children? I've always wondered about that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Klondike93]

Damian, back when I was still active in the ITF, here in the US we had to do it semi-contact then go get the snot beat of us in international competition.

My training partner was fighting for a spot on the US national team to go fight in Malaysa (sp) that year and knocked out the guy he was fighting for first. It was a sweet kick to the head and down he went. Might have been an act cause my buddy said he didn't hit him that hard. Well, the other guy went to fight for the US national team and got knocked out in the 1st round and lost.
In fact the whole team got killed cause they were used to fighting semi-contact and the rest of the world was fighting full contact (like it should be).



:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ya that's what I keep hearing about the States. You guys aren't allowed to compete full contact there and then get mauled at tournaments in other countries because you're not used to it. I guess this can be blamed on the ability to sue eachother easily there? Not trying to insult the States but it is the only reason I can think of for you guys competing at a different level there, since we know you guys aren't wimps or anything like that!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Langdow]

Just to answer your questions on white and yellow belts/children doing full contact sparring, yes it's all full contact. And just as a side note I love watching the 6 year olds in all their gear trying to kick each other. It's like watching giant marshmallows bouncing off of each other

 

[Damian Mavis]

You're serious? 6 year olds do full contact fighting? Maybe we have a different idea of full contact? I don't know... it's just that I can't see a parent keeping their little kid in an activity that has them bleeding and going home with loose teeth and black eyes. Parents are VERY protective of their little ones.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Langdow]

I think we probably have the same idea of full contact, but with all the gear on, the rules of WTF sparring (no striking face right) it's very safe for the little ones. Plus they don't have enough power/speed/coordination developed yet to do any real serious damage.

All the officials I know are quite cautious with ages that young sparring too. We know they're alot more fragile than the older kids are so we just make sure that all the rules are enforced to keep them safe, as well as being sympathetic if they do get a little boo boo.

There usually aren't alot of younger children sparring in tournments because of parents not wanting to let their kids get hurt. I agree with parents who do this, but like I said there isn't great danger for their children to get hurt.

I'll see if I can find some video footage of some younger kids sparring for you to see Mr. Mavis. That'll probably describe it better than I can.

Regards

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ahhh see at our tournaments the majority is kids so picturing 100 kids going at it full contact seemed like the odds alone would dictate that at least one would have to get seriously hurt. And no striking to the face and chest protectors/helmets would cut down on the possibility of serious injury at that age. Most competitors in ITF only wear hand and feet coverings.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Bagatha]

yeah, if there is only contact to the body and your wearing big pads then it wouldnt be so dangerous.......I could see a couple of guys getting canned pretty bad but other than that I think it would be alot safer than "controlled" contact to the head, as one persons definition of control tends to differ from other peoples quite often.

 

[fissure]

I believe that kids under 12 can no longer kick to the head in WTF competition.There is no head punching at any level. Adults wear a chest protector and a light weight foam helmet, with nothing on the feet or hands. However most very young children often get outfitted with ITF style mitts and boots - making for a double layer of protection. And full contact at 6 or 7 really doesn't mean a lot!
I have no experience with ITF tournaments, but I don't understand why contact is used out side of the US but not within? As Damian has said this can't be good for international competition, at least from a US perspective. It can't be because of the fear of law suites - we have too many other contact sports and MAs for that to be the reason. Does anyone have a clue as to the "official" reason?

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

I used to be in the ITF before I switched to kenpo karate. 6 yrs. of training there. I still though however practice the forms on occassion for variety and not really wanting to forget them.

Same here (Just don't tell Dennis Conatser!)

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo

Same here (Just don't tell Dennis Conatser!)

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Same here (Just don't tell Dennis Conatser!)

You thought you could hide in the TKD room do you........... lol
I know your spots change ....... you chameleon!

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

You thought you could hide in the TKD room do you........... lol
I know your spots change ....... you chameleon!

I know, I confess my unworthiness.:wah:

 

[Kong]

Can you win by knockout with ITF rules?

 

[Bagatha]

Not supposed to but I have heard of it. If you are on the retreat or defensive and accidentally knock out the aggressor then that can be ok, but of you are putting your bodyweight into things with the intent to injure, and you do, then you will be disqualified if the other person cannot continue. The higher the tournament, the more will be tolorated. "any" blood at provincials is grounds for disqualification where as at nationals and worlds, it has to be a "violent flow of blood". Etc. Ultimatley it is up to the center ref. The Ref has the control in the ring and can let things go or can be a hard *** its their privalidge.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ya if you crush his nose and blood is everywhere you are disqualified no matter what level. But at all the big tournaments I've been to I've seen people win by knockout. They issue a warning or even a minus point sometimes but if the knocked out opponent doesnt continue the fight you win. I've been to small tournaments that were the same mentality but that was up to the host of the tournament. This is what I've seen in black belt men's and women's divisions.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[fissure]

Damn, I'm confused! You can knock them out but not break and bloody their nose? What if you take them out with a back kick but also break some ribs? Is there a hard and fast rule governing KO's, or is it hit and miss depending on the particular event? In WTF, if you knock someone out it doesn't matter what their facial features look like while they are counting ceiling lights. It seems as though there is a ton of variation in ITF competition, does this hinder training and preperation for you guys?

 

[Damian Mavis]

You break their ribs you win. If it looks ugly they might raise a fuss, but you can be unconscious and look pretty lying there and the other guy wins if you dont continue, even if they did give him a minus point for knocking you out.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Bagatha]

It does totally depend on the event, who is hosting it, where it is and what level it is, who the center ref is etc. But there is a meeting the night before major events where the host spells out the expectations regarding contact and then it is up to the refs to enforce those rules, however some refs are more "flexible" than others. It has happened where if a ref was a little too anal regarding mild contact at the higher levels they were removed. And the same thing if too many people were being injured in a particular ring, ie. too much contact. There is usually a person who oversees the refs walking around at the bigger tournaments making sure everyone is doing their job properly and answers questions. As a competitor you go in prepared for either scenerio of contact, having the ability to pull your kicks if you have to. No matter what the ref will alow you to get away with, the bottom line is you dont need to hit hard to score. Hitting hard becomes part of the mind game, it has nothing to do with the point system at all. Many times out of respect, people choose not to hit each other hard because each person knows the other will answer it back with equal or more power. And since you dont need to hit hard to win... Why begin a power struggle?? Other times though, you get this total jerk for a partner who has no respect and you need to establish dominance right away. Sometimes at the risk of minus points or warnings.