Israeli Fighting Arts Questions

[LoneRider]

Having recently trained in Modern Army Combatives and been involved with various martial arts since boyhood (natural consequence of having a Kyokushin practioner as a father and an eskrimador as a grandfather) I rather like how its a much more practical system than the old LINE system (I've had some, very brief, exposure to it).

I've recently re-watched the documentary on Human Weapon on Krav Maga and it's definitely caused me to learn what I can of this art. I'm currently deployed right now, but I'm going to go on a brief leave period soon and I'm eager to find out what are some good books I can read regarding Krav? While not ideal to learn about an MA through a book, but owing to optempo and the like I can't always train with partners or at schools.

In a sense I already use Krav-esque philosophies in my MA training (I'm presently between MAs right now, I trained in Wing Chun for two years and I'm considering taking up MMA as a hobby when I get back stateside). I usually train hard conditioning-wise then I go and try and apply or use techniques. I'm told that's a favorite of Krav Maga instructors worldwide.

There was a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Gracie Barra Affiliate) I've seen that had a fighting style called Haganah. I know from my study of history (my final history paper in college was actually about the formation of the IDF from resistance organization to actual army) Haganah was the anti-British/Jewish self defense force that was a precursor to the IDF. Is Haganah a sub-variant of Krav Maga or is it a totally different style?

Thanks in advance for any answers to my questions.

 

[MJS]

Having recently trained in Modern Army Combatives and been involved with various martial arts since boyhood (natural consequence of having a Kyokushin practioner as a father and an eskrimador as a grandfather) I rather like how its a much more practical system than the old LINE system (I've had some, very brief, exposure to it).

I've recently re-watched the documentary on Human Weapon on Krav Maga and it's definitely caused me to learn what I can of this art. I'm currently deployed right now, but I'm going to go on a brief leave period soon and I'm eager to find out what are some good books I can read regarding Krav? While not ideal to learn about an MA through a book, but owing to optempo and the like I can't always train with partners or at schools.

In a sense I already use Krav-esque philosophies in my MA training (I'm presently between MAs right now, I trained in Wing Chun for two years and I'm considering taking up MMA as a hobby when I get back stateside). I usually train hard conditioning-wise then I go and try and apply or use techniques. I'm told that's a favorite of Krav Maga instructors worldwide.

There was a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Gracie Barra Affiliate) I've seen that had a fighting style called Haganah. I know from my study of history (my final history paper in college was actually about the formation of the IDF from resistance organization to actual army) Haganah was the anti-British/Jewish self defense force that was a precursor to the IDF. Is Haganah a sub-variant of Krav Maga or is it a totally different style?

Thanks in advance for any answers to my questions.

Hopefully I don't open a can of worms by saying this, but I'll say it anyways. A quick search will probably provide you with many hours of interesting reading, on the various Krav Maga orgs. You will hear people speak good and bad about the KMWW group, led by Darren Levine, in California. There is the KMF (Krav Maga Federation) led by Haim Zut. There is the IKMA group led by Haim Gidon.

I have attended a seminar quite a few years ago with Darrens group. Good bunch of people. I've also heard good things about the other 2 as well. As I said, you'll get many stories. People will bad mouth this one and that one. Of course, its not limited to Krav Maga, but every art. I've heard people say that Larry Tatum is the only one who has the real Kenpo. Of course, those comments were usually from students of his, so go figure. LOL. My suggestion would be to do your homework, research all of the orgs., check out a class if possible, see if it meets your needs and if so, start training.

As for books....the only ones that you will find will be here and here. There is at least one book by Eyal Yanilov. These can all be found in bookstores. Out of what I listed, I either own some of them, or I've glanced at them. For the most part, they're all a good read. I will say that I'm not hinting or suggesting that you buy them to learn from. As always, learning is best done by a qualified teacher.

You also mentioned Haganah. I've heard good things about Mike Kanarek.

Personally, I wasn't impressed with the Human Weapon show. I like Fight Quest much better. If you saw the Krav Maga episode on FQ, that group was affiliated with Haim Zut.

I hope that this helps. Good luck in your search.

Mike

 

[girlbug2]

Complete Krav Maga by Darren Levine is the official manual of KMWW, and the one I use. It is very clear and easy to understand, a good supplement to training.

I don't have much knowledge of the Haganah other than what you said already--I will ask my instructor tonight and get back on that.

 

[LoneRider]

Thanks for the information, both of you. Interestingly enough my Wing Chun Sifu used a lot of the concepts of Krav Maga in instructing my Wing Chun class (I trained for over two years under Armando Sainz of Neptune Beach, FL).

On another note I've always had a deep admiration of the Israeli nation in general, and its military in particular. As an American soldier I see a lot we can and have learned from the Israeli Defense Forces in terms of tactics and the like. And my admiration of Krav Maga and curiousity about various Israeli fighting styles is just another manifestation of that admiration. Say what one will of Israeli responses to anything, but I can't help but admire their fighting spirit.

A bit off subject but one day I'd love to climb the Snake Path and visit the summit of Masada. I know it's kinda weird one of my biggest sources of inspiration is the site of a mass suicide, but to me the story of Elazar ben Yair and the Zealots who preferred death to surrender (the recent historian's blather to disprove it aside) spoke volumes to me throughout my own military experience. I know now that mentioning Masada in some circles can be potentially explosive (a Jewish friend of mine actually was vaguely offended that I found the story to be inspiring). It is odd that a Gentile and a Christian finds a story of Jewish Zealots to be inspiring, one person said of me. But what the story of Masada, regardless of what truth has been uncovered, tells me is to never give up in the face of any odds.

I apologize if my mention of Masada has set off some potential explosions, but to me its one of the many sites of the Holy Land I would like to visit one of these days.

Complete Krav Maga by Darren Levine is the official manual of KMWW, and the one I use. It is very clear and easy to understand, a good supplement to training.

I'll definitely take a look at it. At my local Barnes and Noble before I deployed months ago I saw several books on Krav, including two my old Sifu recommended (Complete Krav Maga by Darren Levine) was one of them.

I definitely think Krav Maga would be a great complement to what I've learned so far in military combatives and for practical self defense when I'm on pass or on R&R at home or elsewhere in the world.

 

[Tez3]

I know little about the martial art but both my parents were in the original Haganah. I can't decide whether it's a compliment or a rip off to name a MA style after the organisation.Like a lot of things commercialism is the name of the game.
One of our MMA fighters went to a KM training week in London, he's in the Paras, he said it was okay but very expensive.A thousand pounds a week for training.

All Israeli soldiers are taken to Masada to give their oath of allegience. Before the current operations in Iraq and Afghanistan a great deal of the medical practices in the forces here came from Israeli experiences in battlefield medicine.

 

[mook jong man]

I've done a whole day seminar with Eyal Yanilov , a very nice man . The training was very gruelling with a lot of multiple opponent stuff , knife defences , stick defences and grappling on the ground against a knife.

I found some things were very similar to Wing Chun , one thing that was funny is that he would demonstrate a technique and say you do this , and then this , and then you pull out your pistol and shoot him , and then he caught himself and said sorry I forgot I'm in Australia , forget about the last part please.

But it is a great system I use a lot of their drills and techniques myself.

 

[LoneRider]

I know little about the martial art but both my parents were in the original Haganah. I can't decide whether it's a compliment or a rip off to name a MA style after the organisation.Like a lot of things commercialism is the name of the game.

But would that entail being familiar with what the Haganah and Palmach were? At least in America if I say the word Haganah to the average most likely to attend a McDojo type person they'd give me a blank stare.

I know little about the martial art but both my parents were in the original Haganah.

Several of my friends joke had I been born a few decades earlier I'd have been one of the first to volunteer for the Haganah, even though I'm a Christian not a Jew.

On another note that must have made the vetting to get into the British Forces difficult considering the Haganah and Palmach did attack British forces frequently in the 1940s.

I've done a whole day seminar with Eyal Yanilov , a very nice man . The training was very gruelling with a lot of multiple opponent stuff , knife defences , stick defences and grappling on the ground against a knife.

I found some things were very similar to Wing Chun , one thing that was funny is that he would demonstrate a technique and say you do this , and then this , and then you pull out your pistol and shoot him , and then he caught himself and said sorry I forgot I'm in Australia , forget about the last part please.

Sounds like he and my Sifu would get along swimmingly.

I know it's not 100% kosher to take things from the Human Weapon series (I know a number of martial artists don't like the series), but I couldn't help but notice the segment at Dennis Hanover's Masada training camp. The whole constant motion, circling, and quick linear and efficient attacks sounds just like Armando Sainz's line of Wing Chun that I trained under for over two years.

I definitely think next time a Krav seminar's anywhere where I'm stationed I'll sign up for it. Do I have to already be a practicioner to attend one? How long do they usually run and how much do they usually cost?

 

[mook jong man]

I definitely think next time a Krav seminar's anywhere where I'm stationed I'll sign up for it. Do I have to already be a practicioner to attend one? How long do they usually run and how much do they usually cost?

Yeah do it man , It was quite a few years ago now and I can't remember how much it cost . Couldn't of been too expensive otherwise I wouldn't have done it.

But I do remember coming away from it feeling that I got good value for money . Make notes after it because they do pack a lot in and its pretty full on , so make sure your conditioning is up .

I was pretty much on the verge of hurling several times and pretty fatigued from the multiple attacker scenarios , you think they're never going to end. Didn't help that we were doing it in an industrial unit in the middle of an Aussie summer.

You didn't have to be a practitioner to go to the one that we went to , my friends and I were all Chunners , I'm pretty sure most of them would be like that . What would be the use of spreading Krav Maga to people that already do it. It went all day from about 9am to about 5pm if I remember correctly.

But it was well worth it to see this guy in action , I still remember seeing him grappling on the floor with this bloody huge Sydney copper , and this copper couldn't do anything to him .

Eyal totally controlled this huge guy from the bottom position , and the big dude was getting frustrated and Eyal was saying in his Israeli accent " Are we having fun now ".

 

[girlbug2]

In the past year at my school there have been special seminars on carjacking defense, knife defense, women's self defense and handgun defense..they have all been under 50 dollars and lasted a couple of hours, open to the public regardless of skill--or lack of skill.

If you can make it out here on Friday there is a handgun defense seminar from 6-9pm being taught by US Chief Instructor John Whitman. Fifty bucks special rate just for our school! With that and plane fare from Florida you should break even to the normal price of $300.00

 

[LoneRider]

If you can make it out here on Friday there is a handgun defense seminar from 6-9pm being taught by US Chief Instructor John Whitman. Fifty bucks special rate just for our school! With that and plane fare from Florida you should break even to the normal price of $300.00

Sorry, I'm more than half a world away in a place we US Serviceman call the Sandbox. Going AWOL would up that price, even if it was to attend a Krav seminar.

I was pretty much on the verge of hurling several times and pretty fatigued from the multiple attacker scenarios , you think they're never going to end. Didn't help that we were doing it in an industrial unit in the middle of an Aussie summer.

You didn't have to be a practitioner to go to the one that we went to , my friends and I were all Chunners , I'm pretty sure most of them would be like that . What would be the use of spreading Krav Maga to people that already do it. It went all day from about 9am to about 5pm if I remember correctly.

I condition a lot, even if I'm on leave (for instance before I deployed during my three weeks of predeployment leave I swam upwards of two to three thousand meters per day six days a week, ran three days a week and lifted three days a week too).

Either way I expect Krav seminars to leave me gasping tired in a good way.

Interestingly enough I've found that tan gurk and bong gurk kicks of Wing Chun to be very good for clinch work for MMA and CQC. I did that training in combatives yesterday with a couple fellow soldiers. I obviously didn't do either kick and full strength because that would've overloaded and destroyed my partners' knee joints, but I definitely can see them as useful practical fighting techniques for both MMA and actual self defense, I just need to switch the target areas. For MMA I'd aim both kicks at the shins or thighs and for self defense I'd concentrate such kicks on the knees.

 

[Tez3]

When the Second World war started the Jewish settlers in what was then British Palestine joined the British forces in the fight against Hitler and the Axis. Many worked in the SOE going into occupied countries to help the restistance.
As for Christians helping the Jews look up Orde Wingate and read up on his life and his wonderfulwork. He is the originator too of jungle warfare as we know it now. An amazing man.
My father was also a British soldier serving during the war in the Highland Light Infantry then the Gordon Highlanders as he was Scottish.
There's little or no security problems involved as I joined the RAF then moved into working in the Ministry of Defence.

 

[LoneRider]

Oh yeah, I forgot that the Haganah also were part of a Jewish self defense force in British Palestine, but elements like the Lehi and Palmach were rather hacked off at the British for not doing more about marauding Arab militias that killed Jewish settlers. But as I recall before 1948 post WWII the Haganah and Palmach clashed with the British several times over the latter's efforts to prevent more Jews from immigrating into Palestine.

As for Christians helping the Jews look up Orde Wingate and read up on his life and his wonderfulwork. He is the originator too of jungle warfare as we know it now. An amazing man.

Thanks for that. I'll definitely tell my buddy that Christians have also helped the Jews in Israel. There are quite a number (a small minority admittedly) that serve in the Israeli Army, mostly immigrants from Europe.

And on another note, I'm glad that Wing Chun seems to blend in well with Krav as a fighting art. I thought that the circling techniques and non-stop motion from Dennis Hanover's training camp on Human Weapon were definitely reminiscent of more than a few Wing Chun lessons I've had (though we fought indoors for most training).

 

[mook jong man]

Yes , one of the first things I noticed is their use of Lin Sil Die Dar or simultaneous counter attack . Another thing similar is the block they use to stop a round house punch to the head or a downward knife thrust .

To all intents and purposes it is what we call a Dai Sau , except theirs is done as a hard block to damage the attackers arm and can move off the centre line .

The angles of the arm are the same except we use ours as a deflection , we use a shearing action on the inside of the opponents arm and redirect the force and spread it over our forearm , and our fingers are kept strictly on the centreline.

They also use what we would call a Tan Sau to deflect a straight knife thrust to the upper body , except the angle of their arm is a lot more closed with the forearm pretty much vertical.

 

[MJS]

regardless of what truth has been uncovered[/i], tells me is to never give up in the face of any odds.

I apologize if my mention of Masada has set off some potential explosions, but to me its one of the many sites of the Holy Land I would like to visit one of these days.

Well, until you actually make it there, I thought you may enjoy these pics. They are from the 2008 Israel trip that the KMF took.

http://www.kravmagafederation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=802

Looks like they had a great time and had some awesome training as well.

Mike

 

[LoneRider]

Thanks MJS. I probably won't go to Masada for a long time because of my present military commitments, but I've got it in my head to visit this particular site when I get the chance.

And mook jong man, definitely I notice that their simultaneous defense and attack and even some of their knee snapping kicks blend seemlessly into Wing Chun. The knee kicks are almost identical to the tan and bong gurk which I'm trying to integrate into my clinch work with some success, I've just gotta work on my timing.

 

[kior]

Hi there,

I've been doing krav for coming up to 2 years with the IKMF (Eyal's organisation) and have a few books. Two are from David Kahn of the IKMA (awesome video of him in action here.) , these are pretty decent although the first one is a bit thin in content in my opinion. They go into the principles of krav quite well.

I also have Complete Krav Maga which is from KMWW, this is probably the best overall value. It's got a large amount of material from their curriculum from simple through to very advanced although if you haven't had training in krav you may find some of it a bit hard to follow (there's now a 'beginners' book as well from them which gives more of an introduction, I've had a flick and it seems alright).

I also have the book by Eyal and Imi which is entirely concerned with defences against armed attack (knives, sticks, guns, hand grenades etc). As I understand it the long awaited follow up to this is coming out later this year and will deal with physical attacks so it will essentially be the IKMF version of the complete krav maga book.

If you want to learn from a book then your best bet currently would be Complete Krav Maga and the book by Eyal and Imi but obviously getting some training is ideal.

 

[LoneRider]

kior,

Thanks. I now know or at least have some clue of what good books to spend my hard-earned dollars on. And when I get back stateside from deployment I'm definitely taking a seminar on Krav next time one passes through my area.

Regards,

LoneRider