Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

jobo

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Yeah or obviously self defence if you fall out of a boat or something. At which point even amazing breast stroke guy would probably do freestyle as well.
depends how far the shore is, the most efficient stroke is possibly back stroke,as it takes by far the least effort, then breast stroke, freestyle/ crawl is ussualy the fastest but it consumes a lot of energy, butterfly is just people showing off

if the shore or boat is a dot in the distance im breast stroking my way out, with some backstroke if i need a rest, if im being chased by a croc im going for crawl
 

Hanzou

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But I think that's the problem...too many WC guys are poorly trained and they end up following a faulty paradigm and they end up doing a caricature of what they think WC is supposed to look like.

But that begs the question; What is WC supposed to look like? It seems that everyone has a different opinion on that.

I suppose from my background that really seems like a weird predicament to be in. In Bjj we just absorb what works and it becomes Bjj. There's no "wrong way" to do something if it works.
 

yak sao

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But that begs the question; What is WC supposed to look like? It seems that everyone has a different opinion on that.

I suppose from my background that really seems like a weird predicament to be in. In Bjj we just absorb what works and it becomes Bjj. There's no "wrong way" to do something if it works.


Is it really supposed to look like anything? WC is not so much a "style" of martial art as it is a system of training your body to fight efficiently.
While the movements of WC are useful for fighting, I consider them more as examples of ways to use the body.
But instead they've become this dogmatic way of moving.

As an example, chain punching is an effective way of teaching the new WC student to defend himself. But the underlying principle being conveyed is relentless attack. But too many misunderstand this tactic that is used as an example to teach the strategy and it instead becomes their main arsenal.
 

Flying Crane

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Is it really supposed to look like anything? WC is not so much a "style" of martial art as it is a system of training your body to fight efficiently.
While the movements of WC are useful for fighting, I consider them more as examples of ways to use the body.
But instead they've become this dogmatic way of moving.

As an example, chain punching is an effective way of teaching the new WC student to defend himself. But the underlying principle being conveyed is relentless attack. But too many misunderstand this tactic that is used as an example to teach the strategy and it instead becomes their main arsenal.
Amen. Ive been saying this for years.
 

Hanzou

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Is it really supposed to look like anything? WC is not so much a "style" of martial art as it is a system of training your body to fight efficiently.
While the movements of WC are useful for fighting, I consider them more as examples of ways to use the body.
But instead they've become this dogmatic way of moving.

So using that definition, wouldn't any fighting system be essentially "Wing Chun"?
 
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geezer

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So using that definition, wouldn't any fighting system be essentially "Wing Chun"?

No.

Wing Chun has specific, identifiable principles such as forward intent, relaxed, springy energy, preference for stand-up linear striking and short, close range attacks and an emphasis on economy of motion not equally valued in some other striking systems. So while it's principles and approaches can be expressed in a variety of ways (not always assuming the traditional poses, etc.) it would not probably look like just any fighting system such as TKD, Northern Longfist, BJJ, Capoeira, or Sumo to name a few.... :D
 

Kung Fu Wang

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So using that definition, wouldn't any fighting system be essentially "Wing Chun"?
One thing that I don't understand is some people may be just too serious about the name of their MA system.

If you throw a roundhouse kick (or foot sweep) followed by a hook punch, what style are you doing?

Why do you want to throw a

- roundhouse kick? Because your opponent's leading leg is too close to you.
- hook punch? Because your roundhouse kick (or foot sweep) rotate your body.

Your body just respond to whatever the opportunity that your opponent presents to you. Even if you are a WC guy, you still won't let that opportunity to pass by.

What will you do if the best solution for a certain problem doesn't come from your MA system? Do you pretend that you don't see that opportunity?
 
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Hanzou

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No.

Wing Chun has specific, identifiable principles such as forward intent, relaxed, springy energy, preference for stand-up linear striking and short, close range attacks and an emphasis on economy of motion not equally valued in some other striking systems. So while it's principles and approaches can be expressed in a variety of ways (not always assuming the traditional poses, etc.) it would not probably look like just any fighting system such as TKD, Northern Longfist, BJJ, Capoeira, or Sumo to name a few.... :D

So whats the issue with its training methodology? Are most WCers learning from forms, or are they free-sparring, or a mixture of both?
 

Tony Dismukes

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I fell into this trap as a teacher a while back.
I found myself relying heavily on solo and 2 man drills trying to instill proper movement/concepts/ technique into my students.
While those things are important, I wish I had just had them glove up and figure it out as they went along.
My preferred teaching model goes something like this:

Start class with some warm-ups which also reinforce proper movement patterns.
Give students a technique or two-person drill to work on for a bit.
Give some rounds of sparring. This doesn't always have to be symmetrical, totally free-form sparring. You can set parameters to keep students focused on the lesson of the day. For example, one variation I like is for partner A to start with an (unresisted) takedown on partner B. Once B hits the mat the match goes live, with B trying to regain their feet and A trying to keep them down.
Watch to see what elements of technique and form fall apart under live pressure.
Take a short break and troubleshoot. Give students specific feedback on what they were doing and how they can improve. (Usually only one or two points per individual so as not to overload them.) Give them a few moments to replay a spot where they were having trouble and practice the correction you just gave them.
Send them back to sparring and see if they can implement the feedback.

When I am able to participate in the sparring, I'll look for opportunities to apply the specific techniques we were just drilling, so that the students can a) see that the moves work and b) experience the feel and timing of the technique in a live context.

I don't see any reason why this approach wouldn't work just as well for WC.
 

yak sao

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My preferred teaching model goes something like this:

Start class with some warm-ups which also reinforce proper movement patterns.
Give students a technique or two-person drill to work on for a bit.
Give some rounds of sparring. This doesn't always have to be symmetrical, totally free-form sparring. You can set parameters to keep students focused on the lesson of the day. For example, one variation I like is for partner A to start with an (unresisted) takedown on partner B. Once B hits the mat the match goes live, with B trying to regain their feet and A trying to keep them down.
Watch to see what elements of technique and form fall apart under live pressure.
Take a short break and troubleshoot. Give students specific feedback on what they were doing and how they can improve. (Usually only one or two points per individual so as not to overload them.) Give them a few moments to replay a spot where they were having trouble and practice the correction you just gave them.
Send them back to sparring and see if they can implement the feedback.

When I am able to participate in the sparring, I'll look for opportunities to apply the specific techniques we were just drilling, so that the students can a) see that the moves work and b) experience the feel and timing of the technique in a live context.

I don't see any reason why this approach wouldn't work just as well for WC.

When I had my school and we were training multiple days a week this is very much the approach we would take.
After I closed my school and started teaching on weekends only. It seems like I spent most of my time just trying to get people to perform proper body mechanics and techniques and we never got into the meat of what I was trying to accomplish.

If I ever resume teaching again I hope to go back to the first model... it's very hard to convey WT teaching weekends only
 

Flying Crane

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When I had my school and we were training multiple days a week this is very much the approach we would take.
After I closed my school and started teaching on weekends only. It seems like I spent most of my time just trying to get people to perform proper body mechanics and techniques and we never got into the meat of what I was trying to accomplish.

If I ever resume teaching again I hope to go back to the first model... it's very hard to convey WT teaching weekends only
That is where the students need to be responsible for their own training, and practice at home. Then most of your class time can be spent on interactive things when you are together.
 

yak sao

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That is where the students need to be responsible for their own training, and practice at home. Then most of your class time can be spent on interactive things when you are together.

The trouble is they don't.....pretty much why I gave it up....for now.
 

Flying Crane

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The trouble is they don't.....pretty much why I gave it up....for now.
Yeah, I would say most people fail to step up and take that personal ownership and responsibility. I dont understand why not. It always seemed obvious to me, literally from day one, my very first lesson. If I didnt spend time at home practicing on days between classes, I felt guilty, like I wasnt doing what was required. I had been taught something, why would I not work to improve it? Why would I be the cause of the teacher needing to waste his time and teach me something again, that he already taught? That isnt to say that guidance and critique werent necessary and ongoing, just that I knew when I fell short and didnt do my part to strive for improvement. That was my responsibility as a student: To learn and develop what is being taught. And its not to build a guilt complex over it, but just to understand what your role as a student is.

What is it that makes people want to join a school and then not embrace what is necessary to improve? I dont know.

You are a teacher, so clearly you have embraced your responsibility in your own training. It goes beyond simply remembering the formal curriculum, and includes recognizing how it can be used creatively and effectively and where you can develop your own creative drills, in addition to adhering to the methodology that was passed down to you and establishes the system. What makes you and I different from the masses? I dont know.
 

Gerry Seymour

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But that begs the question; What is WC supposed to look like? It seems that everyone has a different opinion on that.

I suppose from my background that really seems like a weird predicament to be in. In Bjj we just absorb what works and it becomes Bjj. There's no "wrong way" to do something if it works.
This is one of the areas where I think discussion of TMA goes off the rails. What it looks like isnt really material, in my opinion. If the principles are followed, its valid to the art in question.
 

Gerry Seymour

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My preferred teaching model goes something like this:

Start class with some warm-ups which also reinforce proper movement patterns.
Give students a technique or two-person drill to work on for a bit.
Give some rounds of sparring. This doesn't always have to be symmetrical, totally free-form sparring. You can set parameters to keep students focused on the lesson of the day. For example, one variation I like is for partner A to start with an (unresisted) takedown on partner B. Once B hits the mat the match goes live, with B trying to regain their feet and A trying to keep them down.
Watch to see what elements of technique and form fall apart under live pressure.
Take a short break and troubleshoot. Give students specific feedback on what they were doing and how they can improve. (Usually only one or two points per individual so as not to overload them.) Give them a few moments to replay a spot where they were having trouble and practice the correction you just gave them.
Send them back to sparring and see if they can implement the feedback.

When I am able to participate in the sparring, I'll look for opportunities to apply the specific techniques we were just drilling, so that the students can a) see that the moves work and b) experience the feel and timing of the technique in a live context.

I don't see any reason why this approach wouldn't work just as well for WC.
This is exactly the format I got to see you use when I observed you teaching. Lots of merit, and a good model, IMO. Got me thinking about where I wasnt pushing enough in this direction.
 

Gerry Seymour

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In my experience, if the students know theyre going to be sparring and getting hit in class, it gives them more motivation to train on their own in-between classes.
I also often give specific homework assignments. The idea is to get them used to the idea (and develop the habit) of doing things outside class. Sometime folks dont do things outside class because they have too many choices, so cant figure where to put their time. Or they dont have the experience to put together something to work on, so part of their learning is learning what they can do outside class.
 

Danny T

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My format:
Warm ups and exercises related to the movements to be utilized.
Moments drills - footwork or ground depending on the material being covered.
2 person drills working as a feeder for the other or vice versa. These are interactive drills with both sides learning.
Higher speed drilling with the feeder being a bit more illusive while chasing the timing with baiting and faking attacks.
Controlled, technical sparring. (with coaching) Then continued technical sparring.
Free sparring (depending on the practitioners level)
 

Hanzou

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This is one of the areas where I think discussion of TMA goes off the rails. What it looks like isnt really material, in my opinion. If the principles are followed, its valid to the art in question.

But if there's a huge debate within the art in question about what is effective and what is the "real" version of the art, then are the principles of the art being followed?

This seems rather alien to me in all honesty. It's almost like people are operating from dogma and faith instead of science and reason.
 
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