Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Flying Crane]

I also often give specific homework assignments. The idea is to get them used to the idea (and develop the habit) of doing things outside class. Sometime folks don’t do things outside class because they have too many choices, so can’t figure where to put their time. Or they don’t have the experience to put together something to work on, so part of their learning is learning what they can do outside class.

This is why you start the habit on day one. When you know just a little, you have only a little to work on (even if you work on it a lot). As you learn more, you have more you can work on. The the growth in material is gradual. It is easy to understand when it is gradual, no need to be overwhelmed by too many choices.

 

[geezer]

....It's almost like people are operating from dogma and faith instead of science and reason.

I can't decide whether I should click on "Funny", "Like", or "Agree".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But if there's a huge debate within the art in question about what is effective and what is the "real" version of the art, then are the principles of the art being followed?

This seems rather alien to me in all honesty. It's almost like people are operating from dogma and faith instead of science and reason.

Some folks are married to the idea of their style. They tend to sow divisiveness within their art, because they do tend to be pretty dogmatic. My experience from talking with folks in the WC forums here is that there are a few dogmatic folks (one specific branch I've talked with seems to foster that). Within TMA in general, there are also quite a few folks who just like exploring an art for the sake of that art (often beyond some basic competecy). Those folks (including me, at times) enjoy getting into the weeds of what the style is, which really has little to do with what works in a real fight. I suspect some students get that from their instructor and it becomes more extreme over time, such that the general principles turn into rules, and that can break down a system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is why you start the habit on day one. When you know just a little, you have only a little to work on (even if you work on it a lot). As you learn more, you have more you can work on. The the growth in material is gradual. It is easy to understand when it is gradual, no need to be overwhelmed by too many choices.

Even at the beginning a new student feels overwhelmed. And there are things they aren't really equipped to develop on their own yet, so I like to give them some direction on what to work on and how.

 

[Flying Crane]

Even at the beginning a new student feels overwhelmed. And there are things they aren't really equipped to develop on their own yet, so I like to give them some direction on what to work on and how.

Of course. This is par for the course in learning something new. Begin on day one. Just Do it.

 

[hunschuld]

Is anyone actually fighting with Wing Chun?

 

[Jens]

Is anyone actually fighting with Wing Chun?

In regards to distance control and fighting range, what’s the biggest issue you see with wing chun today?

 

[drop bear]

In regards to distance control and fighting range, what’s the biggest issue you see with wing chun today?

They don't win the entry or win the exit.

 

[Martial D]

They don't win the entry or win the exit.

Or the in between unfortunately.

The thing about all disciplines, martial or otherwise is that they improve over time, assuming they are being put to the test. Model Ts won't win a competitive race against modern vehicles, just as hundreds of years old fighting systems can't compare to what we have now if they are held frozen in time by dogma and never truly tested.

 

[nikthegreek_3]

On another thread, Nobody Important posed the following question:

Clearly, and feel free to argue, Wing Chun as a fighting art has failed miserably when put to the test. Perhaps Wing Chun isn't supposed to look like your doing the forms when fighting, but more importantly, about learning how to refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill and fine motor skill when under duress. Is the art of Wing Chun being used wrong?

It's an old question, but one worthy of further discussion. What are your thoughts?

Of course it is used in a wrong way! First of all, the 90% thinks that they can use punches like in training.. Or that the punch in Wing Chun must be straight))) Have a look at this analysis. It explains why they are beaten up... The wrong punches, the myhtical chain punches that are nothing at all...

 

[geezer]

Of course it is used in a wrong way! First of all, the 90% thinks that they can use punches like in training.. Or that the punch in Wing Chun must be straight))) Have a look at this analysis. It explains why they are beaten up... The wrong punches, the myhtical chain punches that are nothing at all...

You are responding to an old comment I quoted by member "Nobody Important" who hasn't posted here in over three years. And you have responded by re-posting the same video by "Sifu Nick" ...is that you, or perhaps your sifu? Regardless, he makes some valid points about range and methods of punching, but nothing earth-shaking that we haven't seen before.

The real problem here is that both you and "Sifu Niko" use a lot of terms like "right" and "wrong", "authentic" and so forth. Everyone out there, including the "phonies" uses that language. To be really convincing, you probably should show some good, live sparring clips to show how your training looks in a free and unstructured format against live resistance.

Does it look different in actual application from other approaches to WC? Is it far more effective? How do approach different kinds of fighters, like heavy kickers (Muay Thai, etc.) or grapplers? I'm not asking for pro MMA stuff. Just live sparring by some good students. The kind of stuff guys like Alan Orr post. Otherwise, it all comes across like just another sifu talking up his special system. Even I can do that ....if you don't ask me to back it up. I maybe just an old fart in real life, but I'm a badass on a keyboard!

Seriously, though, do you have anything like that you can share?

 

[Poppity]

You are responding to an old comment I quoted by member "Nobody Important" who hasn't posted here in over three years. And you have responded by re-posting the same video by "Sifu Nick" ...is that you, or perhaps your sifu? Regardless, he makes some valid points about range and methods of punching, but nothing earth-shaking that we haven't seen before.

The real problem here is that both you and "Sifu Niko" use a lot of terms like "right" and "wrong", "authentic" and so forth. Everyone out there, including the "phonies" uses that language. To be really convincing, you probably should show some good, live sparring clips to show how your training looks in a free and unstructured format against live resistance.

Does it look different in actual application from other approaches to WC? Is it far more effective? How do approach different kinds of fighters, like heavy kickers (Muay Thai, etc.) or grapplers? I'm not asking for pro MMA stuff. Just live sparring by some good students. The kind of stuff guys like Alan Orr post. Otherwise, it all comes across like just another sifu talking up his special system. Even I can do that ....if you don't ask me to back it up. I maybe just an old fart in real life, but I'm a badass on a keyboard!

Seriously, though, do you have anything like that you can share?

I think it's a pretty much given that they are one and the same person, there was even a lengthy "quote" Nik wrote out which he attributed to his "sifu" as opposed to himself.

But then all great men refer to themselves in the third person such as Julius Caesar and that snark fellow who has really true and great points.

 

[hunschuld]

In regards to distance control and fighting range, what’s the biggest issue you see with wing chun today?

Very difficult question. My answer is based on facing trained fighters not drunks in a bar or standard untrained jerks.Most wing chun can be effective against these types. Also no sucker punching WC that many do.
So start with receive what comes. All wing chun has the Kuit. I see very few examples of people able to apply it. Receive requires the proper use of the body.
Also the understanding that fighting is about use of energy. How to receive energy and how to issue energy. . Most don't understand that we each have our own fighting range. This is part of receive. When your opponent enters your range you move to receive him.

 

[Callen]

Also no sucker punching WC that many do.

In your opinion, what are some examples of sucker punching in WC?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how to issue energy.

The training that borrow the counterforce from the ground (bend legs -> straight legs) is not emphasized during the WC beginner level training. Also the maximum punching distance is not addressed.

Both maximum power and maximum reach are not addressed.

 

[APL76]

The training that borrow the counterforce from the ground (bend legs -> straight legs) is not emphasized during the WC beginner level training. Also the maximum punching distance is not addressed.

Both maximum power and maximum reach are not addressed.

Have you ever watched Pin Choi from Guangzhou wing chun?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you ever watched Pin Choi from Guangzhou wing chun?

I can only compare this with Ip Men's WC with common sense. All power come from the ground. So

bend leg -> straight leg

is a must if maximum power generation is your concern.

 

[hunschuld]

The training that borrow the counterforce from the ground (bend legs -> straight legs) is not emphasized during the WC beginner level training. Also the maximum punching distance is not addressed.

Both maximum power and maximum reach are not addressed.

I am not sure I understand why you posted a video of a wing chun turning punch training. I do agree that most WC does not use the lower body well. However that does not mean all WC. We train how to use the lower body and how to absorb ,manipulate and issue force from the first day.

 

[hunschuld]

In your opinion, what are some examples of sucker punching in WC?

I think everyone knows what a sucker punch is.Hitting someone first before you know if they truly mean you harm.It is not an example of having any real level of fighting ability.

Also as a former Public defender I can say throwing the first punch is a great way to get arrested and face a civil suit. If a person has skills they will use their legs instead of throwing a first punch. More effective and witnesses are far less likely to actually see what happened.

 

[Callen]

I think everyone knows what a sucker punch is.Hitting someone first before you know if they truly mean you harm.It is not an example of having any real level of fighting ability.

Wait... this is actually a thing? For real?

My apologies, I wasn't looking for the actual definition of a sucker punch. Like you said, everyone understands what it means. I was more interested in examples of what you’re basing your opinion on.

I have never heard that the WC community has a significant problem with practitioners just hitting (sucker punching) other people without knowing if there is a true threat first. To me, this is a very unique perspective.

Is this a cultural observation that you have made, a lineage based opinion etc... Can you give some examples of how you have come to the conclusion that a lot of people in WC are doing this?