Is the U.S. violent?

[Tez3]

Always a very chilling fact :brr:.




I didn't know that; it seems that the umbrella of 'Unlawful Kiling' covers a lot more than I thought it did :tup:.




But surely as the Jackbooted Minion of the State, your views are just designed to twist our minds to the authorised way of thinking ... oh wait, no ... that would be in the News of the World version of reality (on those days when the police aren't being pilloried for being too soft on criminals) :lol:.

but people like my jackboots...especially when worn with stockings and sussies!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm biting my tongue here.....I now have an evil idea for a photo shoot that'll get me in all sorts of trouble I think. LOL! 4 outta 5 conservatives will hate it. LOL!

 

[Tez3]

By having an unlawful killing verdict it means we also have a 'lawful' killing one available. It means we can lawfully kill to defend ourselves, as long as it was using reasonable force. Killing someone may seem as if you are using unreasonable force but it is all down to the circumstances.

Unlawful killing is anything other than an accident or self defence of yourself or others basically.

 

[Tez3]

I'm biting my tongue here.....I now have an evil idea for a photo shoot that'll get me in all sorts of trouble I think. LOL! 4 outta 5 conservatives will hate it. LOL!

~thats my secret out lol! I rarely wear trousers at work...

 

[Archangel M]

To compare the US and its crime dynamics with the different states...laws...and variations in cultures (not to mention SIZE). It would be more fair to look at Europe as a whole in comparison instead of just the UK.

How does the UK compare to California? How does France compare to the northeast?

 

[Tez3]

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/worried-about-crime/?version=2

This man was killed by someone known to him.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/01/stab-death-arrests-croydon

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5614274.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5604310.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5601084.ece

 

[Archangel M]

Universal truths.

 

[Tez3]

The crime figures for assault and rape have gone up, this reflects new initiatives by the police to deal with spousal abuse and the victims of rape. Frankly the way these crimes were dealt with in the past by the police and the judicial system was appalling so many victims didn't even try to report crimes. Now domestic abuse is treated as assault which it is, being married to or living with someone doesn't make being beaten up by them any less of a crime.

People coming into police stations with accusations of rape are now treated sympathically, the courts are less tolerant of the aggressive questioning of victims and it's not now taken for granted that the women 'asked' for it by being dressed in a mini skirt.

Knife and blade crimes have always been high here, its part of the culture that predates gun control. People here have always seemed to prefer blades. We have a Catch 22 situation in that teenagers carry knives beause they feel unsafe causing them to use them because they have them so others carry knives to feel safe etc etc.

Gangs have also always been prevelant here and in spite of the media suggesting it's an American thing I suspect we imported them to America.
http://www.gangland.net/glasgow.htm

We have also have our fair share of violent criminals.
http://www.gangland.net/ukgangland.htm

The problem we have won't be solved by arming the populace because the average citizen isn't the one who is being threatened, its teenagers threatening teenagers. We don't have an epidemic of thugs breaking into houses where the householders can defend themselves with weapons, we have an epidemic of predominately (though not exclusiely of course) young black men killing other young men. It's a secretive world of teenagers where it's hard for the police to gather information, it's also hard to know how to control the situation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576698/Youth-gangs-triple-child-murder-rate.html

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I know we are worried about Mexico, and we think crime is high here but...

The British Home Office and the British Crime Survey for 2005/2006.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/crimeew0506.html

Shows in excel that 2,420,000 violent crimes in the time frame of Sept. (2005) to Sept. (2006). Now the population of U.K. for about that time period is of 60,609,153, July 2006 est from the CIA factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

That gives a rate of 3992.8 per 100,000 inhabitants.

In the U.S. using 2005 data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Uniform Crime Report for 2005:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html

We see the crime rate for 2005 per 100,000 inhabitants was 469.2.

But then the U.K. paper, the SUN, says in an article: 600 kids mugged each day! That's 113,000 additional crimes! Yes additional as you see, the U.K. crime report above does NOT include criminal offences on under-16 year olds!!!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article7826.ece

So, when we worry about crime here in the USA, remember that many 'advanced' societies today have far far more (and lots lots more gun control.)

What we don't want to be is like Mexico and U.K. That is, no way for citizens to defend themselves and laws restricting them when defending themselves.

Deaf

Dude.

It's the Sun.

That's like our Enquirer.

Pay no heed.

 

[exile]

but people like my jackboots...especially when worn with stockings and sussies!

I don't know, folks... maybe this thread needs to moved to MT After Dark!

 

[Tez3]

I don't know, folks... maybe this thread needs to moved to MT After Dark!

Ah but it's a secret code known only to a few of us, thankfully the American and English meanings of certain words differ here! I believe it's the gentlemen in America that wear the suspenders!
And besides the Sun is known for it's page three rather than it's 'news'!

 

[exile]

Ah but it's a secret code known only to a few of us, thankfully the American and English meanings of certain words differ here! I believe it's the gentlemen in America that wear the suspenders!
And besides the Sun is known for it's page three rather than it's 'news'!

I only know about p. 3 of the Sun and News of the World by reputation, I have to say! :angel:

I've been in the UK many, many times for reasonably extended stays in some cases, and I've never felt the presence of danger there. I'm certain it is there, of course—there are parts of not just London, but many other towns (I'm thinking Coventry, Manchester, maybe Glasgow, at least once upon a time)... but I've always had the sense that trouble is something that you probably need to pursue if you want it; it won't come looking for you. A bar frequented by National Front thugs after a Team England loss to Nigeria or Turkey would probably be as dangerous as any biker bar in West Yellowstone—but why would you go there knowingly in the first place? The thing is, both there and here, the main victims of violence are those who are in the business of violence, I suspect (just as in the US, it's probably true that the main victims of Mafia hitmen were other mafiosi). The main victims of gang violence are gang members, and so on—and that's probably equally true in Vancouver, Chicago and London.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I only know about p. 3 of the Sun and News of the World by reputation, I have to say! :angel:

I've been in the UK many, many times for reasonably extended stays in some cases, and I've never felt the presence of danger there. I'm certain it is there, of course—there are parts of not just London, but many other towns (I'm thinking Coventry, Manchester, maybe Glasgow, at least once upon a time)... but I've always had the sense that trouble is something that you probably need to pursue if you want it; it won't come looking for you. A bar frequented by National Front thugs after a Team England loss to Nigeria or Turkey would probably be as dangerous as any biker bar in West Yellowstone—but why would you go there knowingly in the first place? The thing is, both there and here, the main victims of violence are those who are in the business of violence, I suspect (just as in the US, it's probably true that the main victims of Mafia hitmen were other mafiosi). The main victims of gang violence are gang members, and so on—and that's probably equally true in Vancouver, Chicago and London.

All comes back to Jon Farnam's "3 stupids" rule. ( By not going to stupid places, with stupid people, and doing stupid things, you exponentially decrease your risk of assault).

 

[Deaf Smith]

Dude.

It's the Sun.

That's like our Enquirer.

Pay no heed.

Andy,

Were the other links to the crime statitics the 'Sun'?

What is more, are you saying the actual article was false? That is did the British government under report crime back then? Yes or no?

And guys, Homicide is simpley takeing another persons life. It might be murder, it might be justified. We are all in a way homicidal! It's just either we will murder someone or not.

Deaf

 

[jks9199]

The thing is, both there and here, the main victims of violence are those who are in the business of violence, I suspect (just as in the US, it's probably true that the main victims of Mafia hitmen were other mafiosi). The main victims of gang violence are gang members, and so on—and that's probably equally true in Vancouver, Chicago and London.

Unfortunately, it's not particularly true of gang violence. Yes, gangs fight each other, dish out beatings as "discipline" or punishment... but they also prey on the community. Drive-bys aren't particularly known for selective targeting. Robberies, extortion, and "bus taxes" are common offenses for gang members, too.

 

[jks9199]

Andy,

Were the other links to the crime statitics the 'Sun'?

What is more, are you saying the actual article was false? That is did the British government under report crime back then? Yes or no?

And guys, Homicide is simpley takeing another persons life. It might be murder, it might be justified. We are all in a way homicidal! It's just either we will murder someone or not.

Deaf

Deaf,
I got a question. What is it with you and trying to shoehorn comparisons between the US and England? While we do share a common heritage -- there's been a lot of diversion since those days. What's the point you're going after?

 

[Empty Hands]

What's the point you're going after?

Gun control and euro-socialism are bad.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Deaf,
I got a question. What is it with you and trying to shoehorn comparisons between the US and England? While we do share a common heritage -- there's been a lot of diversion since those days. What's the point you're going after?

Don't have to shoehorn jks,

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/contents.htm

This report compares crime in the United States and England with respect to crime rates (as measured both by victimization surveys and police statistics), conviction rates, incarceration rates, and length of sentences. Crime rates as measured in victim surveys are all higher in England than the United States. Crime rates as measured in police statistics are higher in England for half of the measured crime types. A person committing serious crime in the United States is generally more likely than one in England to be caught, convicted, and incarcerated. Incarceration sentences are also generally longer in the United States than England.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/22/63817.shtml

Did British Gun Control Work? by Iain Murray
Saturday, June 23, 2001

Yet the odd thing is, before gun control was started in the 20th centruy crime was VERY LOW in Enland (yet lots of guns.)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59866,00.html

"In the course of three years, according to hospital reports, there were only 59 fatalities from handguns in a population of nearly 30 million people. Of these, 19 were accidents, 35 were suicides, and only 3 were homicides 3 an average of one a year."

And you know what the most ironic thing is?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/02/knifecrime.ukguns

Anti-gun campaigner stabbed to death in the UK.

Now that's ironic.

Deaf

 

[Tez3]

Deaf, your first three links are all American, no British statistics there. The last link on the anti-gun knife campaigner is misleading as the grandson was charged with the murder. A tragic death but not one I think you should find amusing because she was anti guns.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7506014.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7511758.stm


I think perhaps you either have to live here or have stayed here enough times to know the truth of what is happening here. Sitting thousands of miles away reading media reports and statistics doesn't give you the truth. If we did that about America I doubt you'd recognise your country as the one you live in.

The truth is, there's crime here however as a whole we don't walk the streets fearfully and the citizens of this country don't want to be armed. There is gang crime, drugs and murders. Show me a country that doesn't have crime. We deal with the best way we can, it's maybe not the way you'd do it but then you're not paying British taxes and should confine your criticisms to your own police/government. Opinions welcome but there's no need to portray our country as a fascist dictatorship who doesn't allow guns and state this as a fact. It's probably worth remembering that England, Scotland, Wales, Isle of Man and Northern Ireland are each different when it comes to laws and policing.

While crime is a problem ( of course) politicians do like to 'big up' the figures then when they have taken over it's a relatively easy job to put them down, crime figures are one of the easist things to manipulate. the big worry in the UK is the recession, people losing their homes because of the American mortgage problems, many British banks bought into the American mortage market and have lost hundreds of millions of pounds,one bank went bankrupt. Now many Brits are losing their homes. Fuel and utility bills are going up higher than the rate of inflation and it's feared with a long cold winter many old people will die. Jobs are being lost as well known companies are going out of business, Woolworths, Wedgewood and many others. Honda have laid off workers for four months, the steel works are closing. There's lots more. The crime we have in this country is not at such a level that it's high on most peoples lists of worries. As the recession continues however it may rise and we'll have to deal with that when the time comes.

Can I compare the UK to Mexico, no, I've never been there and know little about it. I could look it up but then the information would be misleading. I can't compare UK to the US either for the same reason, the media would have us believe thats is inhabited by Paris Hiltons and Brangelinas, ravaged by gangs and wildfires, rednecked KKK members or sinister CIA types, watch television cop shows and you'll believe there's thousands murders everywhere plus America is the home of the serial killer! I said you wouldn't recognise your country!


You may not like us, you may not like our politics but when push comes to shove we always back you up when it's needed, our dead soldiers in the Middle East prove that. We declared war on Japan because they declared war on you, yes you helped during the Second World War but my, you charged us millions of pounds for that, just finished paying it off a couple of years ago. All in all though, the British like who they are and while moaning about politicians ( and the weather) is a national hobby we like the way things are run, if we don't we change them. It really is as easy as that.