Is the U.S. violent?

[bowser666]

I think we shoudl call it like it is. Doesn't matter what country you are in. PEOPLE are violent in general. As long as we have the "cave man" gene, we will continue to be this way. Hopefully as more and more people become educated we will see that violence is not the only option.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think we shoudl call it like it is. Doesn't matter what country you are in. PEOPLE are violent in general. As long as we have the "cave man" gene, we will continue to be this way. Hopefully as more and more people become educated we will see that violence is not the only option.

I have to disagree in some sense......humanity today, as a whole, is far less violent than it was generations ago. Increasingly, violence is relegated to pockets of society. Most folks are decent, hard working people who usually only harm each other by accident.

The cave man gene still exerts it's influence........but thousands of years of civilization and it's rules have selected out many of the most violent examples.

 

[chinto]

is the US violent? depends, compared to where? the middle east country of say Pakistan? or Lebanon? or say to um Switzerland? or Canada?

and again are you talking about by population? or by number of crimes only?


I would say its a lot more peaceable then a lot of places, perhaps worse then a few small places. but then as others have said, the world is a violent and dangerous place.

oh and the overly peaceful have the title generally of Dead or disposesed very very quickly historically.

 

[sgtmac_46]

is the US violent? depends, compared to where? the middle east country of say Pakistan? or Lebanon? or say to um Switzerland? or Canada?

and again are you talking about by population? or by number of crimes only?


I would say its a lot more peaceable then a lot of places, perhaps worse then a few small places. but then as others have said, the world is a violent and dangerous place.

oh and the overly peaceful have the title generally of Dead or disposesed very very quickly historically.

Yeah, usually when folks are comparing the violence of the US, they choose to compare it to Canada and the least violent segments of Europe......I say least violent segments of Europe, because if we compared overall US violence to, say, Scotland, we'd find that only in the murder rate do we score higher........rape, violent assault, etc, you find Scotland to be the most violent society in Europe.

But again, even that's relative.......even the worst pub in Scotland isn't remotely as violent as, say, Rio or Manilla or Bogata or Mexico City.

 

[qwksilver61]

I would have to say yes...especially here in good old Florida.Orlando ranks pretty high as far as Homicides go...over here towards the beach...well take your pick...home invasions,crack heads,meth freaks,you name it everywhere i go around here it seems you have to be hyper-aware.Pumping gas you get checked out (you,your goods) had some sweaty guy with bugged out eyes ready to pounce me (meth head,super paranoid) violent characters and thug life drug addicts rule around here it seems.Innocent people always get the short end,and it's usually after the fact.It never used to be this way in this area.Could be a sign of the times too,pressure from a lot of different factors...everyone seems uptight..ready to jump! Just an observation....two cents.....

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, usually when folks are comparing the violence of the US, they choose to compare it to Canada and the least violent segments of Europe......I say least violent segments of Europe, because if we compared overall US violence to, say, Scotland, we'd find that only in the murder rate do we score higher........rape, violent assault, etc, you find Scotland to be the most violent society in Europe.

But again, even that's relative.......even the worst pub in Scotland isn't remotely as violent as, say, Rio or Manilla or Bogata or Mexico City.

Most of us will disagree that Scotland is that violent and if you look at the report you'll find the figures are based on telephone conversations!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

"The study, based on telephone interviews conducted between 1991 and 2000, said 3% of people in Scotland had suffered an assault, while the figure for England and Wales was second highest at 2.8%. "

The data can hardly be proved accurate and in any case is over ten years old. Northern ireland is an extremely violent place even before the recent murders of the soldiers and policeman, there are regular kneecappings and punishment beatings as well as the usual inter-terrorist fights.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Most of us will disagree that Scotland is that violent and if you look at the report you'll find the figures are based on telephone conversations!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

"The study, based on telephone interviews conducted between 1991 and 2000, said 3% of people in Scotland had suffered an assault, while the figure for England and Wales was second highest at 2.8%. "

The data can hardly be proved accurate and in any case is over ten years old. Northern ireland is an extremely violent place even before the recent murders of the soldiers and policeman, there are regular kneecappings and punishment beatings as well as the usual inter-terrorist fights.

It would appear, however, those weren't just random phone calls, but calls to reported victims of crimes.

"The study, based on telephone interviews with victims of crime in 21 countries, found that more than 2,000 Scots were attacked every week, almost ten times the official police figures. They include non-sexual crimes of violence and serious assaults." http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/567-3292.aspx

The study, by the UN?s crime research institute, found that 3 per cent of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2 per cent in America and just 0.1 per cent in Japan, 0.2 per cent in Italy and 0.8 per cent in Austria. In England and Wales the figure was 2.8 per cent.

Scotland was eighth for total crime, 13th for property crime, 12th for robbery and 14th for sexual assault. New Zealand had the most property crimes and sexual assaults, while Poland had the most robberies.

Now, if those phone calls of reported victims of crime were made to 21 countries, why would they be less or more accurate in Scotland, assuming the same research methodology as used in the other 20 countries? Again, it's not as if they just started calling people in Scotland at random......or even Scotland only. So the question is, what was different about Scotland that yielded these results?



Ironically, this same study yielded a violent crime rate in the US on par with our BJS reported violent crime rate......so it seemed pretty accurate on that count with the same methodology.

 

[Tez3]

It would appear, however, those weren't just random phone calls, but calls to reported victims of crimes.





Now, if those phone calls of reported victims of crime were made to 21 countries, why would they be less or more accurate in Scotland, assuming the same research methodology as used in the other 20 countries? Again, it's not as if they just started calling people in Scotland at random......or even Scotland only. So the question is, what was different about Scotland that yielded these results?



Ironically, this same study yielded a violent crime rate in the US on par with our BJS reported violent crime rate......so it seemed pretty accurate on that count with the same methodology.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/05/14399/1210

It depends on the questions asked and as you'll see in the survey a new question was asked.
Recently a survey was done of women which asked have they ever had sex with a man when they felt they didn't want to, including with husbands, but didn't like to say no. A lot of women answered well yes so when the statistics were published they put these women down as having been raped. The truth was that in a relationship both people often will have sex when their partner wants to more than they do but they are quite capable of saying no so it's hardly rape.
The survey asked about domestic violence and any sort of violence such as smashing a window etc was recorded as violent crime. I remember this survey because at the time the Chief Constables in Scotland were saying it was unrepresentative of crime figures.

"The upward trend in recorded violence can be partly attributed to a new domestic violence 'screener' question which was incorporated in the survey for the first time in 2000. This had the effect of increasing the number of serious assault cases reported to the 2000 survey by 34% and contributed 10% to the overall increase in violent crime. The increase in violent crimes reported to the survey did not reach statistical significance. However, police recorded crime statistics over the same period also showed an increase in violent crime (16%) suggesting that there has been a real increase. Nevertheless, violent crime in Scotland is still rare, with only 2.8% of the population having experienced such a crime in 1999"

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/05/14399/1211

Violence is Scotland is the same as it is in England and Wales and as I've said before is more likely to be against young males. The gang culture in Glasgow for example was widespread long before America was discovered, it's likely the Scots gave you gangs. Blade carrying has always been common, a Glasgow 'smile' is notorious, where they slice your face open.

So while they may have phoned 'real' victims of violence can you imagine the response they got from gang members?

As I said before there is real violence in Northern Ireland but this is mirrored in Scotland, there is sectarian violence as bad as any you will find in NI, you may think Glasgow Rangers and Celtic are just football teams (soccer) they are not. They represent the two sides in sectarian violence that has been going for centuries. The Catholic and the Protestants have never be at peace and probably never, with resulting in violence everyday. It's something thats been overlooked time and time again. theres where you'll find your figures for violence on top of the violence any society produces from its disaffected and criminals.

In the figures for deaths I should point out that deaths by misadventure ( such as climbing, boating, diy etc accidents), deaths occuring outside the UK but to UK citizens ( someone murdred in another country), deaths of servicemen killed in war and accidents, deaths that are unexpected are all recorded as unlawful deaths and 'bump' up the figures. We have had 152 soldiers killed in Afghanistan alone so thats 152 murders recorded in the statistics.


"The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Monday October 24 2005
The feature below mistakenly quoted a forthcoming University of California report as claiming that the country's murder rate now exceeds that of America. However, the report combines figures for murder, manslaughter and other "deliberate and non-deliberate deaths" and concludes that Scotland has a higher violent death rate than America. A recent World Health Organisation report, mentioned in the article, gives Scotland's murder rate as 2.33 deaths per 100,000 people. FBI figures released last week put the US rate at 5.5 per 100,000."

 

[sgtmac_46]

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/05/14399/1210

It depends on the questions asked and as you'll see in the survey a new question was asked.
Recently a survey was done of women which asked have they ever had sex with a man when they felt they didn't want to, including with husbands, but didn't like to say no. A lot of women answered well yes so when the statistics were published they put these women down as having been raped. The truth was that in a relationship both people often will have sex when their partner wants to more than they do but they are quite capable of saying no so it's hardly rape.
The survey asked about domestic violence and any sort of violence such as smashing a window etc was recorded as violent crime. I remember this survey because at the time the Chief Constables in Scotland were saying it was unrepresentative of crime figures.

"The upward trend in recorded violence can be partly attributed to a new domestic violence 'screener' question which was incorporated in the survey for the first time in 2000. This had the effect of increasing the number of serious assault cases reported to the 2000 survey by 34% and contributed 10% to the overall increase in violent crime. The increase in violent crimes reported to the survey did not reach statistical significance. However, police recorded crime statistics over the same period also showed an increase in violent crime (16%) suggesting that there has been a real increase. Nevertheless, violent crime in Scotland is still rare, with only 2.8% of the population having experienced such a crime in 1999"

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/05/14399/1211

Violence is Scotland is the same as it is in England and Wales and as I've said before is more likely to be against young males. The gang culture in Glasgow for example was widespread long before America was discovered, it's likely the Scots gave you gangs. Blade carrying has always been common, a Glasgow 'smile' is notorious, where they slice your face open.

So while they may have phoned 'real' victims of violence can you imagine the response they got from gang members?

As I said before there is real violence in Northern Ireland but this is mirrored in Scotland, there is sectarian violence as bad as any you will find in NI, you may think Glasgow Rangers and Celtic are just football teams (soccer) they are not. They represent the two sides in sectarian violence that has been going for centuries. The Catholic and the Protestants have never be at peace and probably never, with resulting in violence everyday. It's something thats been overlooked time and time again. theres where you'll find your figures for violence on top of the violence any society produces from its disaffected and criminals.

In the figures for deaths I should point out that deaths by misadventure ( such as climbing, boating, diy etc accidents), deaths occuring outside the UK but to UK citizens ( someone murdred in another country), deaths of servicemen killed in war and accidents, deaths that are unexpected are all recorded as unlawful deaths and 'bump' up the figures. We have had 152 soldiers killed in Afghanistan alone so thats 152 murders recorded in the statistics.


"The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Monday October 24 2005
The feature below mistakenly quoted a forthcoming University of California report as claiming that the country's murder rate now exceeds that of America. However, the report combines figures for murder, manslaughter and other "deliberate and non-deliberate deaths" and concludes that Scotland has a higher violent death rate than America. A recent World Health Organisation report, mentioned in the article, gives Scotland's murder rate as 2.33 deaths per 100,000 people. FBI figures released last week put the US rate at 5.5 per 100,000."

'Violent crime' and 'Homicide' are two related, but different figures. Scotland leads the US in every category of violent crime except homicide. That distinction might seem unimportant, until you consider that those other categories including rape and violent assault, robbery, etc.

As to 'murder, manslaughter and other "deliberate and non-deliberate deaths".........that's a pretty darned broad and vague set of categories.

One begins to realize when looking at that broad a categorization that where the US gets a FAR higher rate of 'murder, manslaughter and other "deliberate and non-deliberate deaths".........drunk driving related manslaughter! The US, being a far more mobile society than European societies, has over 15,000 killed every year in DWI related fatality accidents alone.........and, while that certainly is considered 'manslaughter' in our legal system, it's not an indicator of an inherently violent society.

 

[Tez3]

'Violent crime' and 'Homicide' are two related, but different figures. Scotland leads the US in every category of violent crime except homicide. That distinction might seem unimportant, until you consider that those other categories including rape and violent assault, robbery, etc.

As to 'murder, manslaughter and other "deliberate and non-deliberate deaths".........that's a pretty darned broad and vague set of categories.

One begins to realize when looking at that broad a categorization that where the US gets a FAR higher rate of 'murder, manslaughter and other "deliberate and non-deliberate deaths".........drunk driving related manslaughter! The US, being a far more mobile society than European societies, has over 15,000 killed every year in DWI related fatality accidents alone.........and, while that certainly is considered 'manslaughter' in our legal system, it's not an indicator of an inherently violent society.

The way of recording crime here has been a matter of argument for a while now, as I said with the rape figures. A lot of it's political of course, if Scotland's crime figures appear to be high the Scottish Parliament can apply to the British government for more money to 'fight crime'. They have just been given £6m by the British government to police Faslane, the nucleur submarine base in Scotland. Its targeted by the peace campaigners who have a permanent camp there. Now as I know it's already policed by my lot the MOD police which is paid for out of defence funds what are the funds actually going for?

We've always had non natural deaths lumped in together here. It's the way the coroners courts label them. The drunk driving deaths will be in the same statistics as the murders as will the manslaughters and accidental deaths.

Violence in Scotland is down to two things, alcohol and religion. However I think the figures don't show the true nature of Scotland and what it's like to live there.

 

[Tez3]

After seeing another post it's reminded me to add that suicides are also added into the non natural deaths statistics. Scotland has the highest suicide rate in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5297916.stm

 

[sgtmac_46]

The way of recording crime here has been a matter of argument for a while now, as I said with the rape figures. A lot of it's political of course, if Scotland's crime figures appear to be high the Scottish Parliament can apply to the British government for more money to 'fight crime'. They have just been given £6m by the British government to police Faslane, the nucleur submarine base in Scotland. Its targeted by the peace campaigners who have a permanent camp there. Now as I know it's already policed by my lot the MOD police which is paid for out of defence funds what are the funds actually going for?

We've always had non natural deaths lumped in together here. It's the way the coroners courts label them. The drunk driving deaths will be in the same statistics as the murders as will the manslaughters and accidental deaths.

Violence in Scotland is down to two things, alcohol and religion. However I think the figures don't show the true nature of Scotland and what it's like to live there.

Oh, i'd say that's probably right........even 'most violent in the industrialized world' isn't really that violent, compared to places like Rio, Bogata, Manila or Mexico City.

 

[Tez3]

Over here we have had the political parties make a big deal out of crime figures, always making the sitting government look as if they are either causing more crime or are ineffectual in dealing with crime. One party here even had a slogan "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"

We aren't actually that violent a society but crime figures are easily massaged to make them basically read anything you want by including some crimes, ommitting others etc. Bullying in schools has been included in some figures for assaults. The problems we do have, with gangs and knife crimes make the news dramatically which sells newspapers and are used by pressure groups to score points. Black on black crime here is a political hot potato as is what people call the Muslim problem.

A political party will campaign on crime and of course when they get into government it's easy to then massage the figures down and say well look how good we are.

The truth is the majority of people in this country go their whole lives without being a victim to violence or even seeing violence. It's also true that young men are the most likely to be the victims and the instigators of violent crime. However without adding credence to conspiracy theories, keeping a population afraid of crime and violence is a tried and tested way of keeping the public's mind on a subject and away from others such as the economic downturn, the mounting loss of life in Afghanistan and the appalling number of service people coming back terribly injured.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7511192.stm

Knife crime is a problem still, it's mostly tied in with gangs or the fear of gangs.Many carry knives because others do, its a vicious circle. If they carry them they are more liable to use them of course. Apart from domestic situations the deaths by stabbing were of young people, mostly young men and were in 'gang' type situations or young people 'getting in the way' of gangs or being robbed by other young men for mobile phones, trainers etc. Inner city conditions make it hard to police or control though efforts in the communities themselves are showing some success. There is also a cultural tradition on carrying knives here.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Over here we have had the political parties make a big deal out of crime figures, always making the sitting government look as if they are either causing more crime or are ineffectual in dealing with crime. One party here even had a slogan "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"

We aren't actually that violent a society but crime figures are easily massaged to make them basically read anything you want by including some crimes, ommitting others etc. Bullying in schools has been included in some figures for assaults. The problems we do have, with gangs and knife crimes make the news dramatically which sells newspapers and are used by pressure groups to score points. Black on black crime here is a political hot potato as is what people call the Muslim problem.

A political party will campaign on crime and of course when they get into government it's easy to then massage the figures down and say well look how good we are.

The truth is the majority of people in this country go their whole lives without being a victim to violence or even seeing violence. It's also true that young men are the most likely to be the victims and the instigators of violent crime. However without adding credence to conspiracy theories, keeping a population afraid of crime and violence is a tried and tested way of keeping the public's mind on a subject and away from others such as the economic downturn, the mounting loss of life in Afghanistan and the appalling number of service people coming back terribly injured.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7511192.stm

Knife crime is a problem still, it's mostly tied in with gangs or the fear of gangs.Many carry knives because others do, its a vicious circle. If they carry them they are more liable to use them of course. Apart from domestic situations the deaths by stabbing were of young people, mostly young men and were in 'gang' type situations or young people 'getting in the way' of gangs or being robbed by other young men for mobile phones, trainers etc. Inner city conditions make it hard to police or control though efforts in the communities themselves are showing some success. There is also a cultural tradition on carrying knives here.

It's very much the same in the US.......the perception of violence is far greater than the reality in all but a few isolated pockets of society.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The problem is that courts utilize a 'reasonable man' doctrine......unfortunately, what a 'reasonable man' thinks changes from rural Kentucky to urban California.