hongkongfooey
Black Belt
michaeledward said:
I bet there are great parties at that school.
Is the Bible 100% truth?
- Thread starter shesulsa
- Start date
I bet there are great parties at that school.
heretic888
Senior Master
hongkongfooey said:
In the Gospel of John, Jesus Christ is identified with the Word of God. There are similar sentiments in some of the Pauline epistles (especially Philippians).
Mind you, I don't think that Jesus Christ existed in the first place. I believe he is a mythical composite who is wholly allegorical and symbolic in nature (which is the role of Christ within the context of contemplative prayer).
However, the idea is there nonetheless.
Laterz.
hongkongfooey
Black Belt
While I do believe that there could have been a man named Jesus that lived a long time ago. I don't believe that he was capable of all of the supernatural feats the bible says he accomplished. I believe that he was just a man.
heretic888
Senior Master
hongkongfooey said:
Well, I was just telling you what a literal interpretation of the Bible says about Jesus. The "creator of the world" thing does have a scriptural basis, if you interpret the text at face value.
Regarding the historicity of Jesus, I have discussed this several times on these forums. Both the lack of contemporary corroboration as to his existence as well as the fact that the farther back we go, the more "mythical" and less "historical" Jesus is made out to be, lends me to believe that "Jesus Christ" is no different than Osiris, Heracles, Dionysus, or any of a dozen iother dying-and-resurrecting godmen popular at the time.
But that's just my perspective.
Laterz.
heretic888
Senior Master
As to why I believe that perspective, here are photographs of the Egyptian god Serapis:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis1.jpg
http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/alexandria/gallery/serapis.jpg
http://www.egyptos.net/img/dieux/jserapis.jpg
Look familiar to you??
How about a few of the Greek god Dionysus:
http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/sitebuilder/images/049-449x555.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Dionysos_Sardanapalus.jpg
http://www.skidmore.edu/fye/bat/dionysus.jpg
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/classics/jhamilton/mythology/dionysus/dionysus1.JPG
Not familiar at all, huh??
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis1.jpg
http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/alexandria/gallery/serapis.jpg
http://www.egyptos.net/img/dieux/jserapis.jpg
Look familiar to you??
How about a few of the Greek god Dionysus:
http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/sitebuilder/images/049-449x555.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Dionysos_Sardanapalus.jpg
http://www.skidmore.edu/fye/bat/dionysus.jpg
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/classics/jhamilton/mythology/dionysus/dionysus1.JPG
Not familiar at all, huh??
Blade of the East
White Belt
hongkongfooey said:
To answer two questions, The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus are the same person in different forms, so since Jesus is God he created the universe. (a bit confusing I know) Secondly because Jesus is God he was able to preform the miracles that were mentioned in the bible.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Blade of the East said:
Both of these statements require the belief in the truth of the statement, to accept the statement as true; aka circular reasoning.
I do not believe those statements are true.
Therefore, making such statements will not fare well in any attempt to persuade me to your point of view on this issue.
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
I have read the Bible and its variations. I dont believe any of the magical part, such as Jesus healing people or the walking on water. However, the Bible has some great teachings that I cannot deny.shesulsa said:
I dont think the Bible is meant to be taken literally, I believe that its meant to teach people good morals to live by, the Bible, to me, should be seen more as a guideline, than actual facts.
For instance, the mark of the beast. No man will be able to buy sell or work without it. Barcodes, implants to track people ect ect ect. What I get out of this is not to rely 100% on a system because it gives people high up too much power over mankind, and as Jesus said, when there is authority, there will be abuse of authority. That I believe.
Take the lessons from the Bible, but dont let midevil superstitions control your life in the 20th century. Just my opinion.
hongkongfooey said:
John 1: In the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 God.2316 Joh 1:2 The same3778 was2258 in1722 the beginning746 with4314 God.2316
Joh 1:3 All things3956 were made1096 by1223 him;846 and2532 without5565 him846 was not3761 any thing1520 made1096 that3739 was made.10
Yes. God created the world. The man "Jesus" was God the Creator manifest in the flesh. God made a human body and put his Spirit in it. This has always been the foundation of Christian theology.
It is probably best to atleast the Bible and get a grasp of the basics before discussing it.
heretic888
Senior Master
Or, if you prefer Meister Eckhart's interpretation:
".... there are more days than one. There is the soul's day and God's day. A day, whether six or seven ago, or more than six thousand years ago, is just as near to the present as yesterday. Why? Because all time is contained in the present Now-moment. Time comes of the revolution of the heavens and day began with the first revolution. The soul's day falls within this time and consists of the natural light in which things are seen. God's day, however, is the complete day, comprising both day and night. It is the real Now-moment, which for the soul is eternity's day, on which the Father begets his only begotten Son and the soul is reborn in God.
The soul's day and God's day are different. In her natural day the soul knows all things above time and place; nothing is far or near. And that is why I say, this day all things are of equal rank. To talk about the world as being made by God to-morrow, yesterday, would be talking nonsense. God makes the world and all things in this present now. Time gone a thousand years ago is now as present and as near to God as this very instant. The soul who is in this present now, in her the Father bears his one-begotten Son and in that same birth the soul is born back into God. It is one birth; as fast as she is reborn into God the Father is begetting his only Son in her.
God the Father and the Son have nothing to do with time. Generation is not in time, but at the end and limit of time. In the past and future movements of things, your heart flits about; it is in vain that you attempt to know eternal things; in divine things, you should be occupied intellectually....
Again, God loves for his own sake, acts for his own sake: that means that he loves for the sake of love and acts for the sake of action. It cannot be doubted that God would never have begot his Son in eternity if [his idea of] creation were other than [his act of] creation. Thus God created the world so that he might keep on creating. The past and future are both far from God and alien to his way."
Laterz.
".... there are more days than one. There is the soul's day and God's day. A day, whether six or seven ago, or more than six thousand years ago, is just as near to the present as yesterday. Why? Because all time is contained in the present Now-moment. Time comes of the revolution of the heavens and day began with the first revolution. The soul's day falls within this time and consists of the natural light in which things are seen. God's day, however, is the complete day, comprising both day and night. It is the real Now-moment, which for the soul is eternity's day, on which the Father begets his only begotten Son and the soul is reborn in God.
The soul's day and God's day are different. In her natural day the soul knows all things above time and place; nothing is far or near. And that is why I say, this day all things are of equal rank. To talk about the world as being made by God to-morrow, yesterday, would be talking nonsense. God makes the world and all things in this present now. Time gone a thousand years ago is now as present and as near to God as this very instant. The soul who is in this present now, in her the Father bears his one-begotten Son and in that same birth the soul is born back into God. It is one birth; as fast as she is reborn into God the Father is begetting his only Son in her.
God the Father and the Son have nothing to do with time. Generation is not in time, but at the end and limit of time. In the past and future movements of things, your heart flits about; it is in vain that you attempt to know eternal things; in divine things, you should be occupied intellectually....
Again, God loves for his own sake, acts for his own sake: that means that he loves for the sake of love and acts for the sake of action. It cannot be doubted that God would never have begot his Son in eternity if [his idea of] creation were other than [his act of] creation. Thus God created the world so that he might keep on creating. The past and future are both far from God and alien to his way."
Laterz.
DeLamar.J said:
As for the "majical" stuff. I don;t see why a God that created the world and everything in it, would not be able to walk on the water. And why the God that created life would not be able to put life back into a dead body. As mentioned in a previous post, I personally have met and know some people that have been dead. An old friend who I went to church with wlaked out of the morgue and kept his death certificate as a souvenier.
There was no "magic".
Nothing in the Bible defies science. Science is merely the understanding of how the things that God created work.
As for the "bar codes", etc this is just the kind of stuff that proves the Bible is true. How do you think that, roughly 2,000 years ago, people were able to predict with 100% accuracy, what would be happening today?
Bible prophecy tells of a world governement, now we have the U.N. which is essentially just that and will only continue to grow in power. Revelation talks of war with helicopters, "numbers" being implanted in people for control, which is being done now in some cases. Do you think John just got lucky when he wrote of waht could only be computer chips and bar codes?
Really, nothing personal Delamar. You've been thoughtful and respectful in your statements. I just feel like you read things in good faith and are likely a well intentioned person. But I also feel like you missed something big.
DeLamar.J said:
I am very far from being a JW. Among other things, JW's deny the deity of Christ. I am a member of a United Pentecostal Church International congregation.
I grew up in a United Method Church, which is pretty tame. But stopped going when I was a teenager and was not forced any more. Many years later I found myself in an extremely conservative movement, the International Church of Christ. The UMC handed out Bibles but I never read it and no one ever said it was "the word of God" and the never paid much attention to it, other than reading a nice passage every once in a while to make people feel good. The ICOC proposed to me that the Bible was the word of God. Like so many said "come on. It's full of holes, etc." all the usual, seemingly rational arguments. They actually told me to just not come back any more then.
Then one day, I guess you can say I met God and he set things straight.
I remember reading through the Bible after a study with the ICOC group. I was sure they were just trying to confuse issues, taking things out of context to make me think it's saying something it's not, etc. I wanted to read it on my own and just get things sorted out. What God showed me that night was that the Bible is his word and made it very clear who Jesus (actually Yeshua) was and is. What turns out is that the ICOC was misquoting and trying to pull something over on me. Had I continued down that path I don't know where I would be now. I still ask people for advice sometimes, but my Biblical understanding really only comes from God. I am very gun shy about someone telling me what the Bible says. And I invite people to read and study for themselves. We offer studies to help and guide, but I don't want people to feel that I am leading them to believe something. They have to come to it on thier own time,led by God.
I let Him lead me to where he wanted me to go and learn what he wanted me to learn. I found my self in CA, leaving the ICOC and into a much more liberal and charasmatic church where I learned a few things, then on to the UPCI - a combination of the charismatic and more mainstream theology.
I may not be the worlds foremost Bible scholar. But I was able to learn greek to start translating the New Testament and do word studies. I may not be able to quote books/chapters/verses in rapid fire like some do, but I don't feel I need to. I got a good foundation and I can find what I need when I need it.
I have not only seen the 100% accuracy of Bible prophecy, like I said I have seen miracles in people coming out of the morgue, blind people starting to see and others absolutely amzing things that have left Doctors totally baffled and admitting it was a miracle.
I hope you do keep reading your Bible and praying about it. I think you are "wired for faith" because all people are. We all have "faith" in some thing. Even people who do not believe in God at all have faith in things. Some people put thier faith in the governement, people have faith in science, but we all have faith. It's all the same kind of faith, just misdirected some times.
if you keep faithfully reading yur Bible and keep the truth in your heart, then I am sure that God will do for you what he did for me.
heretic888
Senior Master
KOROHO said:
Well, except for a "young earth", six-day "creation", the Flood, the Exodus, the Davidic Empire, the geographical and cultural descriptions of Mark and John, and a few other historical issues.
Of course, all of the aforementioned assumes a literal reading of the text.
KOROHO said:
Simple. People are reading into the text what they want it to say, rather than what it actually says.
Revelation is clearly about the conflict between Israel and the Roman Empire during the first to second centuries. The notation I described earlier about the "Mark of the Beast" coming to mean "Caesar Nero" in both Greek and Latin is proof alone of this. The general consensus among the Biblical scholars I have read is that Revelation was probably originally a first century apocalypse authored by a Jewish Zealot that was subsequently "Christianized" and edited sometime in the second century.
One of the rather amusing things about "Biblical Prophecy" is that it is always decided to have "predicted" events that have happened after-the-fact. Nobody was using Revelation to "predict" September 11 or World War II until both of those events had already happened. Likewise, I'm sure people will "discover" that Revelation actually predicted a dozen other historical events ---- after they have all happened, of course.
In psychology, we call that a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Laterz.
Blade of the East
White Belt
I am not trying to persuade anyone I was just giving my point of view on why Jesus was able to preform the miracles in the bible.
hongkongfooey
Black Belt
KOROHO said:
So you are basically saying that God impregnated a woman, who gave birth to a man, so God could have a body? So in essence God created himself? I mean if God could create the universe, why not just appear to humans and make them believe? Why create a life just to sacrifice it, so some people will fall into line?
hongkongfooey
Black Belt
DeLamar.J said:
This is how I see it also. The Ten Commandments are common sense. When people start buying into to Ghosts and Goblins, things get crazy.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
heretic888 said:
I have been staying out of this and I truly have no intension to get into it, I know when I am out classed. But this point that Heretic888 brought up, "the flood", and it was probably mentioned before in here somewhere in this post, is a real sticking point for me about the whole is the bible 100% true thing.
If you melt all of the ice on the planet, which would raise sea level quite a bit, it still is not enough to flood the world. There just is not enough water on the planet to do that.
Ok, I'm done, have at me.
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