The Bible does not condemn self defense

oftheherd1

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I imagine he only went against some of their interpretations because as I said we are all free to interpret how we see fit, all the leaders wouldn't have agreed on everything, it's why we question and debate it's part of the process. Anyone can put their interpretation up against others, perhaps only non Jews find this of importance? Anyone could lecture anyone if they wanted, depending on how you felt about it yourself as to whether they were right or wrong. I do feel that too much is made of Jesus arguing with people, it's normal, well for us anyway :)

When I was working one place on our beat was the military psychiatric hospital before it closed down, always good for a cuppa and a chat during the night. One psychiatrist said he was always very careful about people who claimed to be G-d or a messiah because you never know, they could be telling the truth lol.

I don't know if I would call Jesus' actions arguing. It may sometimes be a fine point, but in my understanding, He was pointing out the correctness of the Old Testament scriptures versus some of the religious practices of the day. Mind you, that is from my belief that Jesus was not only man, but God man and very God. The way I as a Christian see it, even in the temple incident, His was a righteous anger, that is, against sin.
 

oftheherd1

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It is not sensible to take any one message from any religious text in isolation. Jesus himself acted in the spirit of the whole scriptures (probably for him, at that time, simply what we know as The Old Testament, but possibly also including the apocryphal writings, such as Macclesfield, etc.). A central theme in the life and teaching of Jesus was acting in accordance with principles rather than strict legalistic dogma. For example, while he upheld the principle of non-violence when arrested, flogged and crucified, he did not condemn the Roman Centurion (a man of violence), but said he had not found such faith in the whole of Israel....

I do not, however, understand why you feel the need to defend self-defence from a theological perspective when you are a member of a martial arts forum! But to each his own....

Did you mean Maccabees instead of Macclesfield? I doubt Jesus considered the apocrypha as inspired or scripture. Jews have never considered the apocrypha anything but historical to my knowledge. Tez3 can correct me if I am wrong. The only major christian religion I know of that accepts the apocrypha as inspired scripture is the Catholic Church. Although you can now find some later 'protestant' English version bibles with the apocrypha (and if fact the KJV had it originally, I don't think any have yet declared it inspired scripture. But latter additions is a whole different topic. The KJV translators, as well as earlier translations in English, placed the entire apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments. It was considered interesting history and commentary on the times after the writing ot the last inspired book of the Old Testament, but not inspired writing of God. As to taking any one message, or at least any one verse out of its context for teaching doctrine is often problematic. The saying is that any verse taken out of context is pretext.

As to a need to defend self-defense, I can only guess the OP, sincerely or not, was trying to start a discussion on the morality of fighting in defense of oneself. The morality or legality of using MA is something we do sometimes debate here in MT.

BTW, if you haven't been to the meet and greet section yet, welcome to MT.

EDIT: I did add a couple of things above is someone has read the original and wondered what happened. Hope I haven't confused anyone.
 
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Tez3

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I don't know if I would call Jesus' actions arguing. It may sometimes be a fine point, but in my understanding, He was pointing out the correctness of the Old Testament scriptures versus some of the religious practices of the day. Mind you, that is from my belief that Jesus was not only man, but God man and very God. The way I as a Christian see it, even in the temple incident, His was a righteous anger, that is, against sin.


He may well have been pointing out what he thought was right but so would everyone else! It would have been considered that it was his opinion and many others would have had theirs. Even at that time although there was an 'orthodoxy' there were still many different groups of Jews who believed in doing things differently, Jesus would have been regarded as just being in another one of those groups. Easy to see I suppose the Sanhedrin view that so many people disagreeing with them and each other was a pain. Human nature to think that ones view is the right one.
Sorry I can't write much more at the moment, I'm off this afternoon for the weekend to a Girl Guide leaders weekend. I'll write more when I'm back on Sunday, ( I know I know, so opinionated lol) Have a good weekend everyone! xx
 

oftheherd1

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He may well have been pointing out what he thought was right but so would everyone else! It would have been considered that it was his opinion and many others would have had theirs. Even at that time although there was an 'orthodoxy' there were still many different groups of Jews who believed in doing things differently, Jesus would have been regarded as just being in another one of those groups. Easy to see I suppose the Sanhedrin view that so many people disagreeing with them and each other was a pain. Human nature to think that ones view is the right one.
Sorry I can't write much more at the moment, I'm off this afternoon for the weekend to a Girl Guide leaders weekend. I'll write more when I'm back on Sunday, ( I know I know, so opinionated lol) Have a good weekend everyone! xx

Jesus may have been so regarded, but He sure made the Sanhedrin angry most if not all the time. They wanted him dead.

Anyway, hope you and your girls have a safe and fun outing.

Macclesfield should have read Maccabees - sorry

Not a problem. We all get distracted at times. Worse, I sometimes think just a little bit faster than my fingers type and find myself typing letters for what I am thinking instead of what I thought. Oh the embarrassment sometimes. :)
 

donald1

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I know that feeling! I usually try to read my posts carefully just before posting because I have times where I have made that mistake and sometimes almost made that mistake but corrected it
 

Oldbear343

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Did you mean Maccabees instead of Macclesfield? I doubt Jesus considered the apocrypha as inspired or scripture. Jews have never considered the apocrypha anything but historical to my knowledge. Tez3 can correct me if I am wrong. The only major christian religion I know of that accepts the apocrypha as inspired scripture is the Catholic Church. Although you can now find some later 'protestant' English version bibles with the apocrypha (and if fact the KJV had it originally, I don't think any have yet declared it inspired scripture. But latter additions is a whole different topic. The KJV translators, as well as earlier translations in English, placed the entire apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments. It was considered interesting history and commentary on the times after the writing ot the last inspired book of the Old Testament, but not inspired writing of God. As to taking any one message, or at least any one verse out of its context for teaching doctrine is often problematic. The saying is that any verse taken out of context is pretext.

As to a need to defend self-defense, I can only guess the OP, sincerely or not, was trying to start a discussion on the morality of fighting in defense of oneself. The morality or legality of using MA is something we do sometimes debate here in MT.

BTW, if you haven't been to the meet and greet section yet, welcome to MT.

EDIT: I did add a couple of things above is someone has read the original and wondered what happened. Hope I haven't confused anyone.

Thanks for the welcome :)
 

Hyoho

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Maybe when it come to arts that were founded in Asia its better to get a grip on the religions and philosophies used by that particular country. Not wishing to be offensive and just using a particular race as an example but a jew doing budo is well, "A jew doing Budo". You have your own values to deal with doing something that is probably not even from your country and that identified with another religion in the first place. Ethics are defines by codes of behavior whereas morals are defined by character. Neither one requires religion.
 

jks9199

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Maybe when it come to arts that were founded in Asia its better to get a grip on the religions and philosophies used by that particular country. Not wishing to be offensive and just using a particular race as an example but a jew doing budo is well, "A jew doing Budo". You have your own values to deal with doing something that is probably not even from your country and that identified with another religion in the first place. Ethics are defines by codes of behavior whereas morals are defined by character. Neither one requires religion.
With a very few exceptions -- I can't think of too many arts that are very strongly linked with a religions. Yes, an understanding of Zen Buddhism and Shintoism and their interaction in Japan's philosophy may help you understand some things about why karate or a koryu art is taught a certain way, but I don't quite see how they're directly shaping an individual's practice of the art. Knowing that the Pagan and Pyu monks revered life helps me understand why the stick systems that were recorded from them select certain targets and tactics -- but that doesn't mean I have to practice their religion to apply those same techniques and tactics.
 

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Did the King of Mar seem like a nice guy? Do you suppose he might gift any of us a round trip ticket to Mars? I've always wanted to visit there before the commercial interests ruin it. :D

He seemed pretty reasonable. His biggest concern was a possible invasion by the Duke of Jupiter.
One of the Jesus' tried to cast out demons from all of us.
 

Hyoho

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Personally I received instruction relating to Confucianism and Buddhism after practice. Writing about arts from Asia its difficult to get away from it looking at the deeper meaning of what is taught and its values pertaining to life and death and the attitudes that we should foster.
 

Tez3

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Jesus may have been so regarded, but He sure made the Sanhedrin angry most if not all the time. They wanted him dead.

Anyway, hope you and your girls have a safe and fun outing.



Not a problem. We all get distracted at times. Worse, I sometimes think just a little bit faster than my fingers type and find myself typing letters for what I am thinking instead of what I thought. Oh the embarrassment sometimes. :)


You only have what it says in the New Testament I'm afraid rather than a general history of Palestine/Judea as it was then, there were numerous people the Jewish authorities didn't want rocking the boat with the Romans who might after all if they go annoyed decide to take it out on the Jewish people, retribution could be nasty so of course they wanted rid of trouble makers. There could be thousands of lives at stake so why would they put up with a few troublemakers, the greater good has to be thought of. A couple of other troublers/messiahs have been named, Simon of Peraea and Athronges


It was a good training weekend, we covered a lot of things that could equally be relevant in martial arts, teamwork, respect, how to bring the best out of fellow leaders and the girls, lots of stuff to work on.
 

Tez3

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Thought I'd just cheer your Monday up with a pic of where I spent the weekend lol. Waddow Hall in Lancashire.
 

Tez3

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I don't know if you see that Confucius and Hillel were speaking in the negative, while Jesus spoke in the positive. "Don't do something" as opposed to "Do something." As I said, a subtle difference, but I think there is significance there. You may agree or disagree.

Of course though all the words we are using are English. You are talking three different languages here so there will be nuances that don't translate into English so we can't say there is any difference.
 

Hyoho

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Of course though all the words we are using are English. You are talking three different languages here so there will be nuances that don't translate into English so we can't say there is any difference.
Well one thing for sure if anything is translated into English the meaning can and will be totally changed It's one of the most bastardized languages in the world with enumerable meanings and connotations:

  • Moshe (Moses) and the Prophets did not write in English (Biblical Hebrew).
  • Homer and Plato did not write in English (Hellenistic Greek).
  • Virgil, Ovid and Julius Caesar did not write in English (Classical Latin).
  • Paul and the Evangelists did not write in English (Koine Greek).
  • Krishna and Patanjali did not write in English (Sanscrit).
  • Lao-Tsu, Sun-Tsu, Chuang-Tsu and Chang San-Feng did not write in English (Classical Chinese).
  • Musashi, Takuan and Yamamoto did not write in English (Medieval Japanese).
 

donald1

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Thought I'd just cheer your Monday up with a pic of where I spent the weekend lol. Waddow Hall in Lancashire.

Did you go inside? Did you sleep in one of the beds?! :) I mean i know if I went inside that would be one of the questions id ask (definatly not one of the first few questions I would ask but certainly among them)
 
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Tez3

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Did you go inside? Did you sleep in one of the beds?! :) I mean i know if I went inside that would be one of them (definatly not one of the first few questions I would ask but certainly among them)

Yes we were inside (my room was on the top floor), we ate there too, it's a Girl Guide house (we have other houses around the UK and World Girl Guiding has houses in Switzerland, Mexico, London and India we can go to World Centres has been since 1927. There's fields around for camping as well as activities like canoeing, assault courses, raft building and hiking. It was a training weekend for Guiders. Non Guiding people can stay there too.
Home
 

Tez3

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View from my window.
11667392_10152961623197919_4029696965225599499_n.jpg
 

Dirty Dog

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Thought I'd just cheer your Monday up with a pic of where I spent the weekend lol. Waddow Hall in Lancashire.

Nice place. I absolutely adore the architecture in Europe.

Here's one of the places Sue and I stayed when we were in England last.
Amberley Pano 01.jpg

We were married on the battlements, above the portcullis.
 

oftheherd1

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You only have what it says in the New Testament I'm afraid rather than a general history of Palestine/Judea as it was then, there were numerous people the Jewish authorities didn't want rocking the boat with the Romans who might after all if they go annoyed decide to take it out on the Jewish people, retribution could be nasty so of course they wanted rid of trouble makers. There could be thousands of lives at stake so why would they put up with a few troublemakers, the greater good has to be thought of. A couple of other troublers/messiahs have been named, Simon of Peraea and Athronges


It was a good training weekend, we covered a lot of things that could equally be relevant in martial arts, teamwork, respect, how to bring the best out of fellow leaders and the girls, lots of stuff to work on.

But then as a Christian that is all I believe I need.

In the New Testament, Jesus is not recorded as 'rocking the boat with the Romans,' but only with the Jewish people, who He was first sent to save. I don't see how that would have been a problem for the Romans, nor therefore, a fear for the Jewish leaders.

You are correct that I hadn't heard of Simon of Peraea or Athronges. All I can go on is a quick check of Wikipedia. From that I see that they seem to have believed the messiah would be a king on earth right away, and messiah or not, and they intended to be rulers. The New Testament tells us Jesus made it quite clear that wasn't what He came to do then, nor how He acted. He was quite clear that His Kingdom was not of that place and time.

Glad all Girl Guides enjoyed themselves. It certainly looks like a picturesque area.
 
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