Is More Better?

MJS

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This is a question that I've discussed with my fellow Kenpoists, but I wanted to ask here, to get some feedback of non Kenpoists. :) Of course, if someone who does Kenpo, wishes to comment, please feel free. :)

In the Kenpo system (Parker and Tracy) there tends to be a huge number of techniques, techniques which address a wide variety of attacks. IMO, though, many of them tend to be redundant. For example: we'll use punches as an example. You'll have techs that address a right step thru punch, another set that'll address a right cross, another set that'll address a jab, and so forth. So basically what you end up with is a ton of moves.

While some people that I've talked to have said that all the techs are necessary, I tend to disagree with that. Instead of having this huge laundry list of moves, I'd rather see a list of the most common street attacks. This list would consist of: attacks from the front and rear, ie: grabs, chokes, grabs with punches. Weapon attacks: These would consist of gun, knife and club attacks. Ex: knife thrusts and stabs, blade held to the body and throat from front and rear. Gun: front, side and rear.

Thats just a basic example, but I think its clear where I'm going with this. :) So, now we have a handful of techs, vs. a large amount. The student can focus on a smaller list, and eventually build off of the base techs, which IMO, the students should be doing anyways. By doing this, the students are not necessarily bound by the techs, but will eventually be capable of thinking on the fly and reacting to whats happening at that moment, without having to have a huge list to attempt to go thru when the crap is hitting the fan.

I used Kenpo as an example, as that is the art that I train in. However, the above can be applied to any art.
 

mook jong man

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When it comes to reacting by reflex at close range , the less responses you have to choose from the better in my opinion.
 

oaktree

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I believe it is good to have a basic set of tools to work with.
My analogy will be a tool kit. You can have a mallet, claw hammer, ball-peen hammer. All are hammers they get the job done some better than others a mallet has a wider surface but the claw allows you to pull nails out.

When you are in the job you don't want to be running thru your tool kit going thru your inventory of hammers to use on a single nail.

Meaning in a fight you don't want to be lost yourself in techniques that you can not decided how to attack.

You also don't want to use a saw as a hammer or a hammer as a saw.
Meaning use the correct tool for the job. Or in Martial art case know how to grapple if you are in a grapple situation,strike when you are in a striking situation.

Nothing wrong with any martial arts they are tools used to do a job.
But you have to know how to apply the tools correctly to achieve the job and not hurt yourself.

If my analogy does not make sense thats because you did not drink 3 beers minimum to understand it. :uhyeah:
 

ralphmcpherson

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I believe the less techs the better, too many and it just becomes confusing. In saying that though, you must learn heaps of techs to see which ones work better for you personally. I try and learn as much as I can but discard heaps and just keep the ones that suit my body type, strength etc . The ones I 'discard' I can still do and teach if necessry but just choose not to persue them by practicing them over and over because I know that if push comes to shove I would never use them. Those same techs, though, may be preferred by others so I think its important for me to know them even if I wouldnt actually use them.
 

Big Don

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I disagree with Ralph almost as much as I agree with him.
The way I see it, as a student who hopes to, one day be a competent instructor, I need to learn and practice every part of the system. Yes, there are techniques I like more and techniques I dislike, but, I should never let any student know I don't care for a technique, there is something to learn from everything. There are basics I don't care for, but, I occasionally use them in sparring from reflex. What works for me, might not work for others, but, I should know how to effectively make the techniques work.
We had Mr Planas, and Mr Trejo here for a seminar this past weekend and something Mr Planas said really struck a chord for me: "The more complex a technique, the more steps involved, the less likely you are to use the complete technique on the street."
My Sifu, while teaching, will ask "At what point should the fight be over?" Take the Back Breaker, for instance, After parrying the punch and driving your finger into his eye, a whole lot of fight is going to go out of anyone...
IMO, more is better, because having more knowledge is never a bad thing. If there are 3189 ways to do something, and all work, but at different times, in different situations, how can knowing them all hurt me?
Knowing all but, one, could turn out very bad at some point...
 

ralphmcpherson

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I disagree with Ralph almost as much as I agree with him.
The way I see it, as a student who hopes to, one day be a competent instructor, I need to learn and practice every part of the system. Yes, there are techniques I like more and techniques I dislike, but, I should never let any student know I don't care for a technique, there is something to learn from everything. There are basics I don't care for, but, I occasionally use them in sparring from reflex. What works for me, might not work for others, but, I should know how to effectively make the techniques work.
We had Mr Planas, and Mr Trejo here for a seminar this past weekend and something Mr Planas said really struck a chord for me: "The more complex a technique, the more steps involved, the less likely you are to use the complete technique on the street."
My Sifu, while teaching, will ask "At what point should the fight be over?" Take the Back Breaker, for instance, After parrying the punch and driving your finger into his eye, a whole lot of fight is going to go out of anyone...
IMO, more is better, because having more knowledge is never a bad thing. If there are 3189 ways to do something, and all work, but at different times, in different situations, how can knowing them all hurt me?
Knowing all but, one, could turn out very bad at some point...
I too hope to one day be a full time instructor and that is why I want to learn "all" the techs. I train with a guy who is the same height as me but weighs more and we regularly find that self defence techs that work well for one of us just dont work nearly as effectively for the other. Height plays a big part in many techs also, and as a tall guy there are things that work for me that wont work for a shorter guy and vice versa. Despite this, I want to learn all the techniques so I am a complete martial artist, even though there are many techs I know I would never use. My current instructor encourages us to have our own bag of tricks that we feel comfortable with. Was it bruce lee who said "I fear not the man who knows 10000 kicks but I fear the man who knows one kick but has practiced it 10000 times", that is my way of thinking because if I try to perfect every single move out there by practicing it over and over I will have to live to be 200 years old before they are all effective. I want to know all of them, understand all of them and know how to teach all of them but perfect the ones that I know would work for me if I had to use them. The bottom line is that I dont need to perfect 147 different ways to get out of a wrist grab.
 

Bruno@MT

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I think it is ok to learn more techniques.
However, I do not regard those things mentioned as different techniques. They are different scenarios of the same technique. Someone punches, and the you block and do something back.

Given the different ways you can block / move your body and then do 'something' in return, there are thousands of possible combinations. Don't stare yourself blind on the number of scenarios, because the underlying concepts / building blocks are much more limited in number.
 

Xue Sheng

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This may not make me popular with the Kenpo folks but....

I watched a class and although I do beleive if you actually learn all of that tech you will be a good fighter, and I use to spar an American Kenpo guy who was damn impressive, my overall feeling was you guys over complicate everything. And I do realize that in the tech much of that is not what is going to happen in a real fight but man there is a lot of overkill IMO.

But then I'm an old CMA guy so what do I know.
 

Bruno@MT

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And I do realize that in the tech much of that is not what is going to happen in a real fight but man there is a lot of overkill IMO.

But then I'm an old CMA guy so what do I know.

What, you mean that a lapel grab should not be followed by sending the other guy to the morgue? Pff... that is nothing. One time, this kid dropped a spoon and that ninja slaughtered the entire town.

;)
 

clfsean

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In Choy Li Fut, we have 10 seed techniques/theories. Pretty much once you get those, everything else is (if not the core technique from the seed) a version of it... at least the way I was taught & subsequently teach it. Other arts likes Xingyi have 5. Yiquan has even fewer I think.

There's nothing wrong with have a large number of predefined responses (ala Kenpo) to attacks to cover multiple scenarios, but at some point you have to be able to let go & just respond. Many of the other responses on this thread say that same thing. You can't afford to get lost in your head trying to figure out an appropriate response. You just respond & not worry about how. KISS really does work.

But like Xue ... I'm a CMA'er who likes simplicity.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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This is a question that I've discussed with my fellow Kenpoists, but I wanted to ask here, to get some feedback of non Kenpoists. :) Of course, if someone who does Kenpo, wishes to comment, please feel free. :)

In the Kenpo system (Parker and Tracy) there tends to be a huge number of techniques, techniques which address a wide variety of attacks. IMO, though, many of them tend to be redundant. For example: we'll use punches as an example. You'll have techs that address a right step thru punch, another set that'll address a right cross, another set that'll address a jab, and so forth. So basically what you end up with is a ton of moves.

While some people that I've talked to have said that all the techs are necessary, I tend to disagree with that. Instead of having this huge laundry list of moves, I'd rather see a list of the most common street attacks. This list would consist of: attacks from the front and rear, ie: grabs, chokes, grabs with punches. Weapon attacks: These would consist of gun, knife and club attacks. Ex: knife thrusts and stabs, blade held to the body and throat from front and rear. Gun: front, side and rear.

Thats just a basic example, but I think its clear where I'm going with this. :) So, now we have a handful of techs, vs. a large amount. The student can focus on a smaller list, and eventually build off of the base techs, which IMO, the students should be doing anyways. By doing this, the students are not necessarily bound by the techs, but will eventually be capable of thinking on the fly and reacting to whats happening at that moment, without having to have a huge list to attempt to go thru when the crap is hitting the fan.

I used Kenpo as an example, as that is the art that I train in. However, the above can be applied to any art.
Well, more techniques certainly is more, though I don't know about better.

Then there is the question of how many techniques are simply variations of other techniques rather than separate techniques themselves. I consider it more important to learn the principle that allows for those variations in individual techniques than it is to learn each specific permutation.

I generally am of the opinion that the basic material in a system needs to have enough techniques that different people can gravitate towards the set that works best for them with the understanding that not all students will make use of all of the techniques. This allows students to realize their own style of fighting within the system.

The mastering of new material is meant to open doors to possibilities that we did not see previously. That can take our minds in directions that we may not have otherwise gone, enriching our own martial journey. Even if we do not adopt those techniques as part of our go-to set.

The human body is capable of a great many things. The more techniques we know, the more we are prepared for what we may eventually face. After all, just because it isn't in my go-to box doesn't mean that it isn't in yours.

And of course, there are limits. More is better, but only up to a point. In short, more to the extent that it is beneficial to a variety of students, but not so much more that the material becomes cumbersome.

Daniel
 

jks9199

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When I look at Ed Parker's Kenpo and its descendants, I see a principle based system masquerading as a technique based system. What does that mean? What I've noticed about EPAK and the rest is that they have laundry lists of techniques, but each technique is built on underlying principles. These principles show up again and again thorughout the system, so that a student, while working on "the yellow belt techniques" is actually embedding the principles and how to apply them in different situations.
 

Disco

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I'll just quote an old saying.........."better to fear the man that knows one technique and has practiced it 10,000 times, than the man that has 10,000 techniques and has practiced them once"..........:asian:
 

Grenadier

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Quality over quantity is the general mantra around my school. It's better to have a small number of techniques that you know you can throw with the utmost of confidence, than to be spread out too thinly. If someone has a couple of excellent kicks, a good lead hand punch, and a good reverse hand punch, then he can certainly hang in there in fair competition.

That being said, I still believe that it is equally important to be familiar with more techniques, so that some day, you can incorporate them into your list of confident techniques. From a competition perspective, people in the martial arts tend to be of above average intelligence, and sooner or later, they're going to catch on to you.

In addition to this, being familiar with other techniques also improves your ability to defend against such things.

All in all? It's still quality over quantity, but don't rest on your laurels.
 

Flying Crane

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...my overall feeling was you guys over complicate everything.

a-yup, as a kenpo guy who is also a CMA guy (I should probably say, as a CMA guy who has also studied kenpo) I can see a whole lot of truth in this comment.

I think the Self-Defense Scenario techniques CAN be a good thing, if they are kept in proper perspective, and I think therein lies the real problem: they take on a life of their own, the lists just grew and grew into something cumbersome and unmanageable.

It's gotten me thinking about it, and I wonder which techs might really be useful, and which ones might be unnecessary. Maybe it has to do with the type of attack.

Here's what I'm struck with. The attacks that lay hands upon you, meaning the grabs, the bear hugs, the pushes, the tackles, the chokes, the strangles, the lapel grabs, the wrist grabs, these things have a lot of contact manipulation and having specific defenses against this kind of thing could be useful. It's not always intuitive to break out of these kinds of things and having the techs as a guide might be worth while. I think probably a fair number of these could be dropped as not the best ideas, but there are some really good ones in there that are worth keeping.

However, the punch defenses, maybe those are really kind of pointless. Perhaps a bare handful of those are worth keeping, just to have a base to start with, but most of them are really too complicated to be realistic. When the fists are flying it just becomes too unpredictable, and pretending like the SD techs have some answers in that format, I just find doubtful. I think when the punches are flying ya gotta just be able to roll with it and respond. Personally, I don't have a lot of faith in my own ability to use them much. Granted, that's just me, maybe I'm deficient in some way, maybe it's just a format that doesn't work well for me personally. I dunno. But I've got a whole lot more confidence in the concepts and principles that I've got in my White Crane, to deal with that incoming punch. And in White Crane, we've got no such pre-choreographed Self Defense techs.

If we dumped all but maybe a dozen of the most basic and straighforward punch defenses, right there would streamline kenpo tremendously.
 

Xue Sheng

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In Choy Li Fut, we have 10 seed techniques/theories. Pretty much once you get those, everything else is (if not the core technique from the seed) a version of it... at least the way I was taught & subsequently teach it. Other arts likes Xingyi have 5. Yiquan has even fewer I think.

There's nothing wrong with have a large number of predefined responses (ala Kenpo) to attacks to cover multiple scenarios, but at some point you have to be able to let go & just respond. Many of the other responses on this thread say that same thing. You can't afford to get lost in your head trying to figure out an appropriate response. You just respond & not worry about how. KISS really does work.

But like Xue ... I'm a CMA'er who likes simplicity.

xingyi has 5 in Wuxing but more in 12/10 animals depending on style and like all CMA there are variations but the bottomline in Xingyi in all forms pretty much amounts to...I'm going to hit you...hard. :EG:

Not hit you a lot or several times but once and really really hard :EG:
 

Sigung86

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I've been involved in a series of "discussion" much like this one, elsewhere. Since having been invited by the original poster, I'd like to minimally restate my feelings.

First of all, EPAK has 150 some techniques in it, and Tracy's has 500+ a lot in it and twenty two distinct kata. How many ways do you need to have specifically laid out for you to figure out how to block a punch, a grab, a choke, an arm lock, etc.?

Further, how much of what you've "learned" do you honestly feel that you can regurgitate on a moment’s notice depending on what? Of course there are many, many, MANY options to take out any attack. However, I'm really kind of curious as to how many any system needs.

I kind of see it as a real pain in the butt. Kenpo appears to be trying to be the system that is all encompassing with such a large number of techniques. However, even with all that are there, in either or both schools, students and instructors still find themselves going elsewhere to fill in what they feel are gaps in Kenpo training.

I am under the impression that Mr. Parker (and I've said this before, elsewhere) originally taught in such a way that the upcoming instructor could take the principles and concepts and go create her/his own system.

Frankly, and I'm going to be under fire for this, EPAK is a commercial system, and not necessarily a complete fighting system, although I really enjoy the EPAK techniques. Another thing for your consideration... All the EPAK material up to fifth Black is found in Tracy's up to first Black or thereabouts. So, it is possible that there is nowhere near a complete series of principals, concepts and/or applications... But that all kind of turns into a different discussion.

If you happen to go to you all Tube and look at all the different variations on any given technique you will find just about that many different interpretations and application concepts. It just get's crazy. Having been in Tracy's and earned a sixth black, I wouldn't want to go through ALL that again, and I feel just about the same for EPAK although it is more needed there than not. And that doesn't count the first black in Tang Soo Do, and the out of the box study of Shaolin Kung fu, five animal sets with a Chinese Master I’ve had over the years.

Funnily after all that, I still come down to a few techniques that work well for me in the real world, and the rest was basically filler. And often, in my not so worthy estimation, as a way to make money. (Remember that Traco and EPAK were ways to run commercial schools).

Then I am reminded of IKCA, Vic LeRoux, and Chuck Sullivan who have concentrated their philosophy, concepts, and applications down to two "kata" and fifty-five techniques. And apparently it is quite workable, and successful, judging by all the folks who are in their organization and are quite happy with what they have gotten, are getting, and are passing along to students.

Honestly, if I had it to do all over again, I'd take the Kenpo with the least amount of useful material, take it, ingrain it to make it my own, then experiment and make it work for me. After all, after all the high minded ideals that are being put forth, if you are attacked, the object is simply to go home with the least amount of damage, and have the other guy(s) go to the hospital.

I do believe that a great many of the folks out there teaching have no real concept of the necessity of simple defense techniques or the design and application of the attack. And, honestly, I think that all the concepts and philosophies that you need are found in a limited number of "learned" moves.

And to add fuel to the fire, I personally believe that all that you need to make Kenpo extremely viable, if not superior to many other arts, can be found in the first six forms, and possibly long four, if you feel like you wish to be artsy fartsy.

You simply have to take initiative and responsibility for yourself, and your ability to:
a. Think outside the box.
b. Don’t believe that because you are not trying to decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Or are expert in that subject that you cannot be an expert instructor or Master.
c. Dare to be different, and understand the art of the attack versus the real art of the defense mode.

Two final words... SL4 and Splashing Hands... :angel:
 

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