Is kicking air without a target bad for you?

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Ivan

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I have just come back home over Christmas (barely made it with all the UK Tier 4 lockdowns) and I have a couple of targets set for myself over the time I am here.
The ones I wish to talk about are improving my kicks. I aimed to do 1000 kicks daily until I saw online that it is bad for your knees to kick thin air, without a target. Is this true?
I don't have any suitable targets to kick (heavybags, pads, etc.). I am already doing as much as I can in terms of stretching, as I stretch at least twice daily (I am trying to achieve the splits) and also do 200 lateral raises (100 each leg) daily too, for hip strength.
If it really is that bad for me, is there an alternative for this?
Thanks
 

isshinryuronin

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I aimed to do 1000 kicks daily until I saw online that it is bad for your knees to kick thin air, without a target. Is this true?

1000 kicks/day? Figuring 500/side, that's a lot. Half that sounds more reasonable. You have to be careful of the wear on your knees and hips. Plus your tendons and muscles will be stressed as well. The risk of injury should be strongly considered. Additionally, I would expect that at the end, your kicks will be degraded from fatigue to the point of diminishing return, with little benefit provided by those last couple hundred reps.

The main danger in kicking air, I would think, is hyperextending your knee. Proper control and visualizing a target should prevent that from happening. But with the number of reps you're talking and the resulting fatigue, this danger is increased.

From your previous postings, it seems that in your youthful MA enthusiasm, you are prone to extremes. Try to be more balanced and take a more gradual approach - you have decades ahead of you.
 

jobo

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I have just come back home over Christmas (barely made it with all the UK Tier 4 lockdowns) and I have a couple of targets set for myself over the time I am here.
The ones I wish to talk about are improving my kicks. I aimed to do 1000 kicks daily until I saw online that it is bad for your knees to kick thin air, without a target. Is this true?
I don't have any suitable targets to kick (heavybags, pads, etc.). I am already doing as much as I can in terms of stretching, as I stretch at least twice daily (I am trying to achieve the splits) and also do 200 lateral raises (100 each leg) daily too, for hip strength.
If it really is that bad for me, is there an alternative for this?
Thanks
yes, it can cause problems, rather depebding on which kick it is,and how hard your kicking, so in prefance all way try and kick some thin if you can

and if your kicking hard, the mechanics are all wrong with air kicks and if your kickibg softly the mechanics are already wrong
 
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Ivan

Ivan

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1000 kicks/day? Figuring 500/side, that's a lot. Half that sounds more reasonable. You have to be careful of the wear on your knees and hips. Plus your tendons and muscles will be stressed as well. The risk of injury should be strongly considered. Additionally, I would expect that at the end, your kicks will be degraded from fatigue to the point of diminishing return, with little benefit provided by those last couple hundred reps.

The main danger in kicking air, I would think, is hyperextending your knee. Proper control and visualizing a target should prevent that from happening. But with the number of reps you're talking and the resulting fatigue, this danger is increased.

From your previous postings, it seems that in your youthful MA enthusiasm, you are prone to extremes. Try to be more balanced and take a more gradual approach - you have decades ahead of you.
I feel the need to take it to extremes as I wish to be a professional, and I like to look to compare my training methods to that of top-shelf athletes. In this case, Bruce Lee. As for the count, it consists of 5 different kicks, with 100 kicks on each side. Is there a way to make kicking safe? If I kick slowly and focus completely on technique will it be fine? Personally, I kick as fast as possible concentrating on speed and technique.
 

jobo

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I feel the need to take it to extremes as I wish to be a professional, and I like to look to compare my training methods to that of top-shelf athletes. In this case, Bruce Lee. As for the count, it consists of 5 different kicks, with 100 kicks on each side. Is there a way to make kicking safe? If I kick slowly and focus completely on technique will it be fine? Personally, I kick as fast as possible concentrating on speed and technique.
cant you just kick something? excesive anoubts of any4hibg tends to end up causibg issues later in life, but you wont take that on board, i wouldnt have done at your age

bruce lee wasnt an athlete, he was an actor, quite a fit actor and bad at acting so he only got the gigs coz he was fit, and then he was dead. im not sure id try to replicate that, you be better of picking arnie

if you want to train like an athlete pick a real athelete, and bend the training program to fit, it doesnt even need to be a fighter, though its possibly simpler if it is
 
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paitingman

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Ivan,

Glad to see you're keeping up with your training! Keep up with those lateral raises. I still do them every day (not 100 per side tho lol)

You've practiced kicking in the air many times, right? I'm sure it hasn't hurt you.
Whether 10 reps or 1,000 reps, kicking the air must be done with the required amount of control.
You've put in a lot of reps by now in your journey and have probably developed the strength to bear more stress than you may think.
However, for some, 1,000 kicks may be irresponsible. That is a LOT of reps. It's all about training responsibly. The line between pushing yourself and hurting yourself can be easy to miss.

There have been periods of my training when knocking out 1,000 roundhouse kicks (not full force) on the heavy bag before the night is through was an every session kind of thing.
I've never tried so many in the air.

To explore alternatives we need goals. Do you have specific results you're wanting from this specific exercise/quota?
Perhaps there are other exercises and drills that can help you achieve the desired results with fewer reps and in less time. 1,000 kicks is a big chunk of time in your training.

Anecdotally, I've only seen inexperienced or older practitioners harm themselves while air kicking.
I've been kicking the air almost every day for almost 30 years now and can't recall coming close to hurting myself.
 

JowGaWolf

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I aimed to do 1000 kicks daily until I saw online that it is bad for your knees to kick thin air, without a target. Is this true?
This depends on what type of kicks are you doing and how much you condition your tendons. If you don't do exercises that condition your tendons then you'll end up wearing them out and that's what's actually bad.

If you aren't specifically doing things to strengthen your tendons then I would greatly lower the count of the number of kicks. If anyone knows about kicking it's these ladies. They do up to 650 kicks a day. My guess is that while 1000 kicks seems cool and like you are a beast. It's probably over kill.

As far as kicking thin air. My guess would that this would be better for you because you don't have the impact. Having impact is good as well but you don't want to over do it. I used to kick Cement posts maybe 20 times a week and that was it. I'm more of a quality before numbers type person. 10 quality kicks are better than 50 sloppy ones. I will actually stop training a technique once I'm no longer able to keep from being sloppy with it.

sloppy techniques = injuries. If your kicks are getting sloppy after 30 then you should first fix the kicks 31 - 40.

Out of all of what you stated you didn't mention how you are strengthening your tendons, so I would start there and work my way up to the point where I feel that I'm about to be sloppy with the kicks. That would be my limit until I can get to that point without being sloppy.
 

JowGaWolf

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You have to be careful of the wear on your knees and hips. Plus your tendons and muscles will be stressed as well. The risk of injury should be strongly considered. Additionally, I would expect that at the end, your kicks will be degraded from fatigue to the point of diminishing return, with little benefit provided by those last couple hundred reps.

The main danger in kicking air, I would think, is hyperextending your knee. Proper control and visualizing a target should prevent that from happening. But with the number of reps you're talking and the resulting fatigue, this danger is increased.
I could have saved myself some typing lol. I should have read this first. I used to be the same in my 20's I thought extreme training was the way to get there and it's not. All it does is wear things down faster. In my 20's I never factored in healing like I do now. Back then healing was something I did only when I got hurt. But now I heal even if I'm not injured. If I have a really good workout, I know that I need to heal even if there aren't any painful injuries.

I would have had better progress in my 20's had I understood this.
 

JowGaWolf

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I feel the need to take it to extremes as I wish to be a professional, and I like to look to compare my training methods to that of top-shelf athletes. In this case, Bruce Lee.
Yeah and Bruce Lee died while many of the non top-shelf athletes had a long life. One common them in Kung Fu stories about great fighters is that they worked really hard, were really good, then died young because they didn't take care of themselves.

If you really want to be good in something then you'll need to have balance. Otherwise you are going to be like a candle that burns all day and night
 

jobo

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I could have saved myself some typing lol. I should have read this first. I used to be the same in my 20's I thought extreme training was the way to get there and it's not. All it does is wear things down faster. In my 20's I never factored in healing like I do now. Back then healing was something I did only when I got hurt. But now I heal even if I'm not injured. If I have a really good workout, I know that I need to heal even if there aren't any painful injuries.

I would have had better progress in my 20's had I understood this.
very much, thats why im refering him to an athelete program where such things are factored in rather than internet myths, if your goibg to do a silly number at least have some time off before you do it again

and of course ask yoursrlf the question of " are there any quabtifiable benifit of doing a 1000 instead of say 800, if the answer is no, why are you doing a thousand?
 

dvcochran

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I feel the need to take it to extremes as I wish to be a professional, and I like to look to compare my training methods to that of top-shelf athletes. In this case, Bruce Lee. As for the count, it consists of 5 different kicks, with 100 kicks on each side. Is there a way to make kicking safe? If I kick slowly and focus completely on technique will it be fine? Personally, I kick as fast as possible concentrating on speed and technique.

Ivan, I have always Loved your drive and enthusiasm!
It is a good, logical idea to compare your exercise routine to pro athletes. But you have to remember the resources and facilities they have available to them that you do not.

I have never heard of anyone who regularly does 1,000 air kicks daily for an extended period. They can truly be hell on your knees and hip joints. Ask me how I know.:(

You beat me to my next comment. One excellent way to augment your workout and improve your kicks is to do them slowly as air kicks using a mirror to critique them. It is similar to shadow boxing for the mental component but with more technical purpose.

Something I did way back in the day when I did not have a bag available was to tie several pillows to a large tree. With a little practice you can go full speed and it works well enough to take the shock and load off the knees but I still do not recommend full power kicks this way. I hope that makes sense to you.
I would also increase the variety if you plan to do 1,000 kicks/day. You can set the daily variety to 5 but mix it up every day or so to 1.) to increase your tool bag and 2.) to avoid burnout.
 

paitingman

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This depends on what type of kicks are you doing and how much you condition your tendons. If you don't do exercises that condition your tendons then you'll end up wearing them out and that's what's actually bad.

If you aren't specifically doing things to strengthen your tendons then I would greatly lower the count of the number of kicks. If anyone knows about kicking it's these ladies. They do up to 650 kicks a day. My guess is that while 1000 kicks seems cool and like you are a beast. It's probably over kill.

As far as kicking thin air. My guess would that this would be better for you because you don't have the impact. Having impact is good as well but you don't want to over do it. I used to kick Cement posts maybe 20 times a week and that was it. I'm more of a quality before numbers type person. 10 quality kicks are better than 50 sloppy ones. I will actually stop training a technique once I'm no longer able to keep from being sloppy with it.

sloppy techniques = injuries. If your kicks are getting sloppy after 30 then you should first fix the kicks 31 - 40.

Out of all of what you stated you didn't mention how you are strengthening your tendons, so I would start there and work my way up to the point where I feel that I'm about to be sloppy with the kicks. That would be my limit until I can get to that point without being sloppy.
This is a great post.

A lot of Taekwondo schools don't have this type of tendon conditioning practice.
The training culture can be much more like western PhysEd. than traditional martial arts.
I think that type of gym mentality leads to lots of the number of laps/reps you do reflects how hard you're really working types of vibes.
Definitely lots of whistles and laps in my training days. The coaching culture back then just wasn't as joint and health conscious.
Anybody remember when Chuck Taylors were for sports? lol
 

paitingman

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It is a good, logical idea to compare your exercise routine to pro athletes. But you have to remember the resources and facilities they have available to them that you do not.

This is an important point.
@Ivan if you really want to train like a professional athlete, you need to enlist about 5 people on hand who will massage your leg for as long as you say lol
 

JowGaWolf

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This is a great post.

A lot of Taekwondo schools don't have this type of tendon conditioning practice.
The training culture can be much more like western PhysEd. than traditional martial arts.
I think that type of gym mentality leads to lots of the number of laps/reps you do reflects how hard you're really working types of vibes.
Definitely lots of whistles and laps in my training days. The coaching culture back then just wasn't as joint and health conscious.
Anybody remember when Chuck Taylors were for sports? lol
We often fail to strengthen the things that holds us together and as a result our own body tears itself apart. We strengthen muscle but never the "strings" attach it. As a result the muscles tears and twists those strings until it snaps.
How many high performance athletes do we see all wrapped in bandages, braces, compressions, and other straps and strips for the purpose of reinforcing a small part of the body that was never conditioned.

They make everything else strong except for the things that hold it all together.
 

Tez3

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I have just come back home over Christmas (barely made it with all the UK Tier 4 lockdowns) and I have a couple of targets set for myself over the time I am here.
The ones I wish to talk about are improving my kicks. I aimed to do 1000 kicks daily until I saw online that it is bad for your knees to kick thin air, without a target. Is this true?
I don't have any suitable targets to kick (heavybags, pads, etc.). I am already doing as much as I can in terms of stretching, as I stretch at least twice daily (I am trying to achieve the splits) and also do 200 lateral raises (100 each leg) daily too, for hip strength.
If it really is that bad for me, is there an alternative for this?
Thanks


Not to put a downer on you but I really hope you are quarantining yourself for at least 10 days. This is the advice governments are giving their people who have come from the UK. You won't be popular if you bring the new variant of Covid to your community.
 

jobo

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Not to put a downer on you but I really hope you are quarantining yourself for at least 10 days. This is the advice governments are giving their people who have come from the UK. You won't be popular if you bring the new variant of Covid to your community.
i have a feeling he has just returned to england from scotland, ir mayve a different part of scotland, he is most certainly at a scotish univerity, im not aware there are any quarantine guidance if you stay in the uk, thouth there may well be next week
 

jobo

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We often fail to strengthen the things that holds us together and as a result our own body tears itself apart. We strengthen muscle but never the "strings" attach it. As a result the muscles tears and twists those strings until it snaps.
How many high performance athletes do we see all wrapped in bandages, braces, compressions, and other straps and strips for the purpose of reinforcing a small part of the body that was never conditioned.

They make everything else strong except for the things that hold it all together.
thats not really true, its impossible to strenghen muscles with out also the tendons, the problem is that tendons being some what smaller than muscles are more prone to injury and their development lags the develment of the associated muscle,, so if your engaged in a strengh ir fitness buildibg program you always likely to have muscles stronger than the tendons ability to to compete
.if you strenghen the tendon, your also strenghing the muscle, so they never catch up
 

dvcochran

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I fully believe this statement:

Tendons are remarkably strong but prone to injury. Resistance exercise can strengthen tendons, although they take longer to respond than muscles. Studies on mice with mini-treadmills has shown that exercise increases collagen turnover in tendons, as well as encouraging blood flow.
Is it possible to make tendons stronger?.

I also believe anatomies are different and it is a harder thing for some people to do, even when building muscle.
Definitely one of those "the struggle is real" kind of things.
 

Tez3

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i have a feeling he has just returned to england from scotland, ir mayve a different part of scotland, he is most certainly at a scotish univerity, im not aware there are any quarantine guidance if you stay in the uk, thouth there may well be next week

Scotland has had a travel ban for a while, no travel to or from Scotland. No travel around Scotland either. He faces a fine if he's travelled from there and he's an idiot for doing it. My son in law's parents live in Scotland, they can't leave to visit him and my daughter.
 

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Perhaps consult with a doctor as to if it could cause damage? He/she may be able to advise you on better methods of practice to achieve the same goal with less risk of injury. Also, it would allow an evaluation of where youre at. It sounds like youre young, dont injure yourself thatll end up sticking with you for years to come or even life if it can be avoided.
 
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