Is Having A "Record" Necessary?

MJS

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Throughout many threads on this forum, I've seen posts that basically state that if you don't have a MA fight record, you're not really the fighter you say you are, as there is no proof of victory without one.

So, my question is: Do you feel that its necessary? Do you need to enter the UFC, NAGA, or any other sport event, to get that record?

Mike
 

mrhnau

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Throughout many threads on this forum, I've seen posts that basically state that if you don't have a MA fight record, you're not really the fighter you say you are, as there is no proof of victory without one.

So, my question is: Do you feel that its necessary? Do you need to enter the UFC, NAGA, or any other sport event, to get that record?

Mike

Its not necessary, but some people like having their skill/victories sanctioned. its the only method for really validating fights...

People like to compete. Its their nature. People also like having stats to analyze and study. Its just how our soceity is :) I don't hear complaints about records in basketball, football, etc.. Do you NEED to play in the NBA and excel to validate your skill as a basketball player? No, but to get wide spread international recognition you might want to. Hearing someone say they are as good as Michael Jordan is great, but if they never played an organized game in their life, its hard to measure that.

There are ways to validate your own skills. If you defend yourself in a bar, or from a mugging, then you have validated your own skill. For me, that would be enough. Are you concerned about recognition or your ability to defend yourself? What is important to you? You could be a great basketball player and validate it through pick up games, but not having organized games would make it difficult to get international recognition. Also hard to make money otherwise (well, gambling aside, but you have that in street fighting eg non-sanctioned fight clubs for money)
 

Tez3

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If you mean MMA then every fighter has a record. Those that don't fight don't call themselves fighters. Records are important as they mean the promoter of a show can match fairly. I don't know if other martial artists call themselves fighters or not.
 

Rook

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It bothers me whenever someone with no competitive record refers to themselves as a fighter.

The burden of proof is on you to prove what you say about yourself. Without this, we have nothing more than creative writing exercises in which anyone with a keyboard is a "streetfigher" and whoever can make up the most fantastic victories is king.

BTW the same goes for claim about historical lineage. That is seperate from fighting and regardless of how well you can or can't fight, if you claim historical lineage it is your obligation to provide proof of your assertions to the world.

Trust but verify.
 
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MJS

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People like to compete. Its their nature. People also like having stats to analyze and study. Its just how our soceity is :) I don't hear complaints about records in basketball, football, etc.. Do you NEED to play in the NBA and excel to validate your skill as a basketball player? No, but to get wide spread international recognition you might want to. Hearing someone say they are as good as Michael Jordan is great, but if they never played an organized game in their life, its hard to measure that.

Hey, I like that Basketball analogy! :ultracool I pretty much agree with what you're saying. What the difference is, as far as I can see, is that we have adovcates of the ring and those that have no desire to enter the ring, but have defended themselves successfully in real life confrontations. To use your basketball theory: its kinda like saying, "Sure, I'll play ball with Jordan, but he can only have 2 other people on his team while I have the standard number of players." In the ring, with the list of rules, no weapons, no mult. attackers, one can say that they're the best, yet get their *** handed to them on the street. Alex Gong was a top notch Kickboxer, yet was shot and killed in the middle of the street.

There are ways to validate your own skills. If you defend yourself in a bar, or from a mugging, then you have validated your own skill. For me, that would be enough. Are you concerned about recognition or your ability to defend yourself? What is important to you? You could be a great basketball player and validate it through pick up games, but not having organized games would make it difficult to get international recognition. Also hard to make money otherwise (well, gambling aside, but you have that in street fighting eg non-sanctioned fight clubs for money)

Personally, I have no desire to enter the ring. I am not interested in national recognition. What matters to me, is can I defend myself. People tend to use the record as the sole, determining factor, yet, those same people can't seem to offer a reason why there are people who have used and do use their skill everyday, and have no record, yet they defended themselves. I have a number of friends that are LEOs and Correction Officers and have come out of altercations unhurt, due to their MA training.

Thanks for your reply!:ultracool

Mike
 
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MJS

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It bothers me whenever someone with no competitive record refers to themselves as a fighter.

The burden of proof is on you to prove what you say about yourself. Without this, we have nothing more than creative writing exercises in which anyone with a keyboard is a "streetfigher" and whoever can make up the most fantastic victories is king.

BTW the same goes for claim about historical lineage. That is seperate from fighting and regardless of how well you can or can't fight, if you claim historical lineage it is your obligation to provide proof of your assertions to the world.

Trust but verify.

Let me ask you this. Do you feel confident with your training? Do you have a record?

Mike
 
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MJS

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If you mean MMA then every fighter has a record. Those that don't fight don't call themselves fighters. Records are important as they mean the promoter of a show can match fairly. I don't know if other martial artists call themselves fighters or not.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about anyone that trains in the arts, not necessarily a MMA fighter.

Mike
 

Tez3

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Perhaps the definition of 'fighter' is different for different people? To me a fighter is a competitor in MMA fights (or boxing) . People who defend themselves in attacks I think rarely describe themselves as fighters?
 

mrhnau

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Perhaps the definition of 'fighter' is different for different people? To me a fighter is a competitor in MMA fights (or boxing) . People who defend themselves in attacks I think rarely describe themselves as fighters?

I tend to think differently... I think the physical training of most martial arts is to learn how to defend yourself when fighting is necessary. I think someone that trains to fight could be considered a fighter. I think someone training MMA is clearly a fighter, but trains to fight in controlled circumstances. Still fighting, just strictly regulated.

Its all just a matter of semantics though :) what we choose to label ourselves as has minimal impact in potential outcome of a confrontation, be it IRL or in the ring.
 

Andrew Green

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Anyone can train, anyone can be a martial artists.

A few of those have the ability and the desire to become fighters, not everyone wants too, not everyone should.
 

Rook

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Let me ask you this. Do you feel confident with your training? Do you have a record?

Mike

I never refer to myself as a fighter. I have no professional record and it would be hypocritical for me to refer to myself as anything other than a student.
 
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MJS

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I never refer to myself as a fighter. I have no professional record and it would be hypocritical for me to refer to myself as anything other than a student.

As usual, I can always expect a quick reply from you.:ultracool Thanks! I'd still be interested to hear the first part of the question that I asked though:

Do you feel confident with your training?

As for myself...I don't like to say anything to hype myself up, giving the impression that I'm more than what I say. I too, consider myself a student. I love to train, I love the things that I've gained from training, and I still have a long way to go on my journey. One of my goals that I had when I began, was SD. I feel comfortable with the knowledge that I have. I never consider myself a Superman, and realise that there is always someone better out there. When someone says SD, in a way, that can be deemed fighting. Can I fight? Sure. Am I a professional fighter? No. :)

As always, thank you for the great discussion and reply.

Mike
 

Tez3

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I think most people would say they "do/train/study" martial arts. I think too it's taken for granted that you can fight if necessary or if you want to. Records are important to me as it tells us who to match with whom. We wouldn't match a fighter with a 12-3-1 record with a fighter with a 1-1-0 record for example. I think our use of the word fighter is more of a technical term than anything else. We can't shout out at a show "could the martial arts students who are competing in the MMA competition tonight please go to the next room for medicals" lol! We just shout "fighters....".
 

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Do you feel that its necessary? Do you need to enter the UFC, NAGA, or any other sport event, to get that record?

Mike

No.

I have had to use my MA and as I have said before I am not proud of it but I know it works. And if someone is dead set on me proving it by getting into a match and fighting then I guess they can say whatever they want it matters not to me. I feel no need to prove it to anyone and frankly I do not want to use it if I do not have to. I was taught by my Jujitsu Sensei that if you can run from a fight run because a fight is an extremely serious thing and I forgot this in my late teens and I found he was right and his words are something I wished I hadnt forgot.

My Tai Chi Sifu has no MA record is half my size and can easily throw me around like a rag doll and does not care to prove it to anyone nor does he feel the need to.

My Non-sport Sanda Sifu tells few he is trained in Sanda but I can pretty much guarantee you don't want to find out the hard way either. He has no desire to get into competitions nor does he feel the need to prove it either.

And here I find myself in this silly argument again.

Enough, this argument grows tiresome.
 

whitedragon_48

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Personally, I have no desire to enter the ring. I am not interested in national recognition. What matters to me, is can I defend myself. People tend to use the record as the sole, determining factor, yet, those same people can't seem to offer a reason why there are people who have used and do use their skill everyday, and have no record, yet they defended themselves. I have a number of friends that are LEOs and Correction Officers and have come out of altercations unhurt, due to their MA training.

Thanks for your reply!:ultracool

Mike

Amen to that brother. I used to be a fighter. Back then, records were everything. Now, I have a roomfull of trophees and belts that just gather dust, they mean little, really.

Mike: your LEO friends must be awesome to come out of altercations unhurt. I've come out beaten, with broken bones, even stabbed, but alive. Thats all the record I need. No need to prove myself anymore in tournaments and fights (just for fun). I never train anybody to fight; that implies failure, I train to survive.
 

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Outside of a competition context -

A record is not neccessary to be a good fighter.
It is however in some shape or form, necessary to PROVE you're a good fighter.
For the most part, you won't need one. I'll take most people at their word, so long as they make their points logically. However when someone raises a point that I find suspicious or disagree with logically, then it will require some sort of record or proof of their achievements for me to attach weight to their opinions.
So long as you stick to logic for proving a point, no record neccessary.
Should you try to prove something using anecdotal evidence, a record will be neccessary to add weight to your opinion.

Within competition -

They are a damn fine way of regulating matches.
 
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MJS

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Mike: your LEO friends must be awesome to come out of altercations unhurt. I've come out beaten, with broken bones, even stabbed, but alive. Thats all the record I need. No need to prove myself anymore in tournaments and fights (just for fun). I never train anybody to fight; that implies failure, I train to survive.

Perhaps 'unhurt' was not the proper word. A scrape, bump or bruise, sure, but nothing that put them out on comp.
 

Rich Parsons

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Throughout many threads on this forum, I've seen posts that basically state that if you don't have a MA fight record, you're not really the fighter you say you are, as there is no proof of victory without one.

So, my question is: Do you feel that its necessary? Do you need to enter the UFC, NAGA, or any other sport event, to get that record?

Mike


Oh a MMA Fight Record. ;) I thought maybe you were talking about another type of record.

The Record shows your willingness to compete and shows who you have won and lost against. This gives people a chance to "grade" or "rank" one person against another based upon who they have beaten. But as in the UFC and other places the top contenders go back and forth and beat each other and I expect that this would happen sometimes as well for the average guys. Now of course someone is always going to have someone else's number, but the next guy may not be so easy.

So a record does help, to show that you can compete, and are not all theory.
 

Eternal Beginner

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Throughout many threads on this forum, I've seen posts that basically state that if you don't have a MA fight record, you're not really the fighter you say you are, as there is no proof of victory without one.

So, my question is: Do you feel that its necessary? Do you need to enter the UFC, NAGA, or any other sport event, to get that record?

Mike
No, I don't think you have to have a "record" if you are making no claims.

However, if you are asserting that what you teach or practice is superior, or want to be a credible representative of a style, I think having some evidence or proof would be advisable.

Of course, there are different ways of doing this. I don't think you have to enter competitions necessarily or pick streetfights, but having a reputable lineage or at least people of acknowledged skill vouch for you would be great.

I guess it comes down to also being honest with yourself as a "fighter". If you are comfortable never having actually tested what you know in a competition setting or against people who aren't your normal training partners than fine. My only caveat is for those who train in that manner that you shouldn't be surprised if not everyone is willing to accept your self-assesment.

For those who train for fun and fitness, than they have no need to prove anything to anyone, again, especially if they are making to claims or criticizing other training methodologies. But if you are going to start being a guru or a critic, back it up people.
 

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Hello, Keep in mind those who who have a fight record are most likely pretty good fighters in the ring, which has rules,judges,time-outs,regulations.

On the streets in a real fight...which could have eye strikes,throat attacks,bone breaking techniques, anything goes,including using anything around you for weapons.....is NOT the same as fighting in the rings.

Having a fighting record proves you have some ability to fight in a contest, and experience in fighting in regulated conditions.

Those with records have the advantage because this is the next closest thing to a real fight. Most likely in very good shape, train differently.

Most of us who have not gotton in to real life situtions, the challenge is can we react and perform how we are train?

The adrenline response is something most of us do not experience on a daily basis.

Remember the places to attack.....DO the eyes have It! Go for broke...namely the choke (throat attacks)...than if not, we work ourselves for the next best tarkets...........Aloha

PS: Records...is best if your records shows you to be a good person!
 
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