Fight Records

[MJS]

Many times, while surfing the web, reading various threads, I tend to find at least one person talking about fight records. Usually the person is basing his opinion on the effectiveness of the art or the person doing/teaching the art, on whether or not they have a record.

So, in your opinion, is this something that you look for when you train with someone? Do you feel that its a pre-requisite for someone before they can teach?

 

[MJS]

For myself, I look at a record the same way I look at rank or the certificates that someone has on the wall of their school. IMO, they don't mean much. Are they nice to have? Sure, if thats what someone needs to make themselves feel special. In other words...someone can claim rank in 10 different styles, and have a wall full of pictures and certs. but what matters most, to me anyways, is how well they a) understand the material, b) how well they can make it work, c) how well they can teach it.

I don't see how having a 20-0, 10-1 or whatever other numbers you want to use, is going to really matter when it comes down to it. Like I said, if someone has this, thats perfectly fine, but IMHO, it does not mean that you're going to be any better of a teacher or fighter than someone who doesnt have one.

 

[Josh]

For myself, I look at a record the same way I look at rank or the certificates that someone has on the wall of their school. IMO, they don't mean much. Are they nice to have? Sure, if thats what someone needs to make themselves feel special. In other words...someone can claim rank in 10 different styles, and have a wall full of pictures and certs. but what matters most, to me anyways, is how well they a) understand the material, b) how well they can make it work, c) how well they can teach it.

I don't see how having a 20-0, 10-1 or whatever other numbers you want to use, is going to really matter when it comes down to it. Like I said, if someone has this, thats perfectly fine, but IMHO, it does not mean that you're going to be any better of a teacher or fighter than someone who doesnt have one.

I agree.

 

[FearlessFreep]

In baseball a lot of times journeymen players make better coaches than the stars. The stars have raw talent, strength, 'it', whatever it took to raise them from just another player to the pinnacle of the game. Often, whatever it is is something that is very hard to transfer to someone else. Whereas a journeymen who made a career with mediocre stuff often makes a better coach because they now what it takes to still win with whatever you got, and can often teach that to others much better.

I was once told that when evaluating a teacher, don't look at how good they are, look at how good their students are.

 

[bluekey88]

A fight record is simply another piece of raw data that i can use to inform my judgement of a martial artist. As with all data, it needs to be looked at critically. Who did this person fight? A lot of young fighters with savvy trainers have winning records becuase they've bene put up against guys they can beat to build that record and gain some ring expereince. Later in hteir career things can change. Maybe a fighter at the end of his/her competitive career (who doesn't know when to reitre) will have a not as good record due to age, wear and tear, etc even though they are/were a great fighter. Finally, as has been stated, a fight record doesn't measure teaching ability (something more important in a teacher than their abili9ty to win against all comers).

I lump that data in with things like years of experience, lineage, rank, group associations, student skills, etc. With that, based on why I need this data I try to make an educated guess. However, a fight record in and of itself is jsut a raw bit of data with no context.

Peace,
Erik

 

[terryl965]

Here is the thing just because you was a greta or bad fighter does not mean you can teach, teaching is a whole different game. One must know and understand human tendercies and how to help people over come there fears. I have seen great fighter and they had great records but could not teach someone the proper horse stance. I feel record deploma's or certificates mean very little today. What I need to see is that passion from withen so I know they are devoted to what they are teaching.

 

[thesandman]

I agree with what's already been said. A fight record reflects only how well they did in a particular stretch of fights. Nothing else. It's also important to understand that a raw number, 10-0 or something, doesn't tell you anything about the nature of the fights. Where these classic sparring matches? Continuous fighting matches? Grappling matches? Regardless, has no real baring on the individuals ability to teach.

I tell you what, after moving to NY to be with my wife my personal training time has gone down significantly. I'm no longer in good shape. I don't get to work with my black belts nearly as often. I teach, I spend time with my wife, and I work out when I get the opportunity. My point being that I certainly hope people judge my ability as an instructor by the quality of my students, not by what I may or not be capable of myself right at this moment.

 

[Tez3]

It depends what you are training for surely. If you are training to fight competitively it helps if the person teaching has experience in fighting in competitions. You need someone who can take you through what it's like to compete and how to prepare.
Fight records are important to us as we are competitors, you can't put someone on his first fight in with someone who has 27 fights for example. You also need to see who they've fought, most fights here are evenly matched luckily. Perhaps this is is because we are a small country lol and we know everyone! My instructor who is also a promoter has a book where he keeps the record of every fighter in the UK, it helps him when he matches fighters. Records are kept accurately by most promotions (and trainers) and we swap data to make sure they stay up to date.

 

[MJS]

A fight record is simply another piece of raw data that i can use to inform my judgement of a martial artist. As with all data, it needs to be looked at critically. Who did this person fight? A lot of young fighters with savvy trainers have winning records becuase they've bene put up against guys they can beat to build that record and gain some ring expereince. Later in hteir career things can change. Maybe a fighter at the end of his/her competitive career (who doesn't know when to reitre) will have a not as good record due to age, wear and tear, etc even though they are/were a great fighter. Finally, as has been stated, a fight record doesn't measure teaching ability (something more important in a teacher than their abili9ty to win against all comers).

I lump that data in with things like years of experience, lineage, rank, group associations, student skills, etc. With that, based on why I need this data I try to make an educated guess. However, a fight record in and of itself is jsut a raw bit of data with no context.

Peace,
Erik

Nice post! Thanks for your reply!

Regarding the record...do you feel that it could be a bit misleading? What I mean is...there is nothing to say that just because he won X number of times, that under different conditions or against someone else, the outcome could be different? I believe you did touch on this when you said that it would depend on who the person fought. So if thats what we go on, is it really key in the decision of whether or not having one is really that important?

Mike

 

[bluekey88]

I guess what I'm saying is that that whether or not a fight record is an important piece of data depnds on other factors. If, as Tez pointed out, you are a ocmpetitive athlete looking for a trainer, getting one with legitimate fight experience is important. However, if the guy fought "chumps" or his fight record was in a different kind of discipline than what you need him for (a boxer training your BJJ or MMA for example)...then it may be meaningless.

In the end, it is simply raw data. It needs to be looked at critically and put into context. As a consumer, when you do that, you protect yourself from misleading info (this goes beyond fight records). I think a fight record can be useful in some cases, but misleading in others...dasly, it's up to the consumer to figure out where the info fits in to what they are looking for.

I might be looking for a self-defens einstructor and find a guy with a great fight record against good guys. He will definitely know how to get me in shape and build my fihgting skills. However, I might do better to work with the guy with lots of street/LEO/Military expereince with no fight record for pure self-defense training. If neither guy is a good teacher, fight records and backgorund becomes meaningless for as Terry said, no matte rhow good they are, they will not be able to transmit a greta degree of their knowledge to me.

Again...it's all about data in context.

Peace,
Erik

 

[still learning]

Hello, Fight records may not mean much to many people ...but they do bring in more business?

Ask BJ Penn school in Hilo, Hawaii, or Graces schools or MMA schools ...records do effects the numbers of people signing up!

Everyone wants to be train from "winners" if TIGER WOODS decide to start a golf school and he is the teacher? ....what would his chance be today to have a large enrollment VS if he never won a thing?

Fight Records is not a sign of Good teacher....but it does help get more students..

Same with many of the brand name schools out there!

My fight record ( zero) ...running away or escaping ( more than zero)

Looks like I got zero and zero ....Aloha from Zero aka zerro

 

[MJS]

I guess what I'm saying is that that whether or not a fight record is an important piece of data depnds on other factors. If, as Tez pointed out, you are a ocmpetitive athlete looking for a trainer, getting one with legitimate fight experience is important. However, if the guy fought "chumps" or his fight record was in a different kind of discipline than what you need him for (a boxer training your BJJ or MMA for example)...then it may be meaningless.

In the end, it is simply raw data. It needs to be looked at critically and put into context. As a consumer, when you do that, you protect yourself from misleading info (this goes beyond fight records). I think a fight record can be useful in some cases, but misleading in others...dasly, it's up to the consumer to figure out where the info fits in to what they are looking for.

I might be looking for a self-defens einstructor and find a guy with a great fight record against good guys. He will definitely know how to get me in shape and build my fihgting skills. However, I might do better to work with the guy with lots of street/LEO/Military expereince with no fight record for pure self-defense training. If neither guy is a good teacher, fight records and backgorund becomes meaningless for as Terry said, no matte rhow good they are, they will not be able to transmit a greta degree of their knowledge to me.

Again...it's all about data in context.

Peace,
Erik

OK, gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, I agree...if I was looking to fight in the ring or other competitions, then yes, I'd most likely want to go with someone whos record was good.

You're last paragraph summed it up. This is pretty much what I was talking about. Someone who is not interested in the ring, yet people who are jump in and say that unless something has been tested in the ring or the person you're training with has a record, what you're doing is useless.