Is formal MA training necessary?

[Steve Grody]

Joab,
While it is unlikely that your friend would come up with everything necessary or efficient, what would be a positive thing about his attitude is that he might indeed come up with something that actually worked for him because he would have to rely on his experience rather than experience far removed which is often the case in the least interactive martial arts. Interestingly, Guro Edgar Sulite's main teacher, Jose Caballero, did just that and became a fearsome fighter in numerous stick challenges.

 

[Phoenix44]

Necessary? Necessary for what?

I mean, you can just walk around with a baseball bat if you want.

People train in MA for a lot of reasons.

 

[jim777]

Necessary? Necessary for what?

This is, of course, the magic question. You can learn to do lots of things without taking formal lessons. Can you get to 'master' level without lessons, probably not. Maybe 1 in 10 million can, but I wouldn't bet on those odds, not even with my CasinoCash

I played guitar for 9 full years, often 8 or more hours a day, before I ever took a lesson. It was a very humbling thing to see just how much better I could have been, (with even less effort!) with a little instruction. With constant instruction for those 9 years, well, I'd be a professional musician now, as I've continued to play for the 24 years that followed those 9. I did have fun, and was able to impress my friends with what I had learned on my own, but I could never have gone toe to toe with someone who had received formal training.

So, can you 'get by' without formal training? Sure. Can you hang with someone who actually has had formal training and takes that training seriously, most likely not, and by a long shot. Doesn't make you bad person, it's just the way of the world.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Joab,

I will stick with the basic premise that this person sets forth and that you indicated a few posts back that you agree with (at least in theory).

The basic premise is that anyone can figure out how to fight without any formal martial arts training. As others have mentioned, this is true to a degree and under some dubious conditions.

Some people are natural fighters. Some people are very, very good at figuring things out. Nothing that is performed in a fight is rocket science. Some techniques, such as the Gracie techniques mentioned earlier, are very difficult to just figure out, but the right kind of person could potentially do it. You know, those guys that solve the rubix cube in ten seconds?

So, are you a guy who solves the rubix cube in ten seconds? That is the question that anyone considering this premise needs to ask themselves. If not, then chances are that they are just like 99% of the rest of humanity and will need some help.

The biggest factor is that human beings do not throw tactically sound punches naturally. In fact, a human being has no natural weapons, such as claws, and no instinctual killing moves, such as knowing to crush the throat with your jaws like wolves and big cats do. Our hands were designed to manipulate objects, not to break boards. Our legs and feet were designed for locomotion, not kicking. We are not even particularly strong. In the animal world, a chimp half our size with skinny arms is stronger than most people. Pound for pound, compared to most animals, we are comparative weaklings.

Interestingly, even those animals are 'taught' to hunt by mom and dad.

Thus, it took a very long time of people developing techniques, other building upon them and developing new techniques to get where we are today. The level of technical expertise of an advanced practitioner is most definitely not something that can simply be figured out by just anyone. Even prodigies have teachers.

Daniel

 

[Josh Oakley]

I look at it this way: why would I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the same things that others have not only figured out but stress tested as well. Why should I reinvent the wheel, as it were?

 

[ap Oweyn]

People learn from experience. Whether that experience is a structured program in a proper martial arts school or the cumulative experience of real-life dustups. (And God help the guy who faces off with someone who has both.) The most skilled people are apt to be the ones who have benefited from some structured training but also have the background (experience) and temperament (natural inclination) for fighting.

I'm going to guess your ex-friend had none of the above. In my experience, the guys who usually talk about self-learning are the ones looking to validate a basic unwillingness to train hard and test themselves against other people. The "find your own path" stuff just provides a nice philosophical-sounding legitimation for not doing something you simply don't have the chops for.


Stuart

 

[Grenadier]

Some people with amazing talent may be able to "figure it out on their own." However, such people are exceptionally rare, and are typically not going to be people with no experience at all.

I got into an interesting discussion about this with a fellow Kobudo practitioner, and he pointed out that one of the senior instructors of Yamanni Chinen Ryu, Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro, had essentially figured out how to work the sai on his own, with no real formal instruction, other than Kishaba Sensei showing him a few basic moves.

I can't argue with that, that the saijutsu part of Yamanni Ryu is quite good, and that in this case it did work. However, the fact that Oshiro Sensei had many years of Karate and Kobudo training had a lot to do with this. That, plus his ability is phenomenal, and beyond the limits of most people's.

Your average newbie would not be able to do such a thing. Even your average well-trained martial artist will not be able to do such a thing.

Even if you are one of the phenoms of the world, formal training can greatly reduce the amount of time that it takes to learn and apply the techniques of the martial arts. It can also be a lot safer, since you'd be under the watchful eye of someone who knows how to train others and not get them injured due to improper mechanics, bad control, etc.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Sukerkin and I appear to be the only one’s hanging around here who study iaido, and I’m sure he would attest to, it is amazing how many people pick up a sword and suddenly within six months start their own schools or are suddenly experts. Hell I’ve been practicing iaido, jodo, niten, tanjo and various other schools of kenjitsu for ten years and while in class I’m a senior, I “feel” like a beginner. However I know enough to realize within 30 seconds of watching someone, if they honestly have a clue as to what they are doing.

No offense to other MA, but so often schools will add sword into their curriculum, or they were added in years ago. I watch some of these weaponless MA using a sword and it all looks so very wrong, they shorten the weapon up, they have terrible distance and timing and treat the blade like a baton, spinning it this way and that.

As someone here already said, why would you want to ignore the knowledge and experience earned by senior practitioners? My Sensei always uses the analogy of a bus getting you to a destination. Why would you want to switch busses? Why would you want to switch modes of transportation? If it was good enough to get you to where you, your sensei and countless others to where they needed to be, why change it? Why found your own school?

It’s the kids, the ignorant and the ego’s who become 10th Dan grand master soke’s at 20 years of age and become “experts” about all MA.

 

[chinto]

to be blunt, your friend is an idiot at best. If training in combat was not needed why did every military and group from the cave man that wanted to be effective in combat find some one who was and ask to learn from them???
why does every single military in the world have a basic training regimen to teach their people to be effective in a fight on the battlefield??

the answer is simple, people learned to fight better and trained others over century's. people who did not learn from the past experiences in combat and pass it on.. DIED. so the ones who did not learned that knowing how to fight better equaled survival did not win, and the people saw that and learned.

why else would boxers have coaches to compete in a sport for gods sake? Now if you need to learn to be able to put up a fight in a sport where generally you do not die if you loose, would you think you do not need it for a fight that you got a good chance you might die if you loose?

 

[Cirdan]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

 

[Sukerkin]

ROFLKILITA! Cheers for that, Cirdan :lol:.

We haven't quite had students looking like that roll up (tho' a number of us that are now nidan or sandan did start with swords not much better than that ).

 

[Ken Morgan]

OMG...those are Klingon bat'leth's on the wall behind him....
Really, there isn't anymore to say about him, the sword or what he's doing....

 

[Cirdan]

:lfao: just noticed he has a "SENSEI" patch on his arm too

 

[chinto]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

now that is so bad it is funny! batliths on the wall and a 440c sword!! :lfao::yoda: a real martial artist desires not these things!! :flame::flame:

 

[Omar B]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

This guy is officially my new god! I'm going out to get my ear pierced and start growing a '70's porno mustache.

 

[Cirdan]

This guy is officially my new god! I'm going out to get my ear pierced and start growing a '70's porno mustache.

Don`t forget the knuckle tattoo.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I look at it this way: why would I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the same things that others have not only figured out but stress tested as well. Why should I reinvent the wheel, as it were?

On top of that: many traditional systems had their techniques tested in liefe and death battles. Everything that survived for centuries probably has solid foundations.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

This weapon makes it so you can disembowel yourself with the end of the tang at the very same time as beheading someone, out of shame for using such a ridiculous weapon.

That is, if you don't poke out your eye with that dragon wing at the tsuba.
Priceless.

I used to frequent a thread on another forum, named 'krappy karate katana kamae' which showed martial artists posing with swords, who obviously never learned to actually use it propery.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

So much wrong with this picture. So, so much.

He is holding the crappy wallhangar sword all wrong.
The fact that he is holding a crappy wallhangar sword.
The sensei patch coupled with the poom belt.
The fact that he apparently consented to be photographed with all of the above.
The fact that he should not have had side shot taken of him.

Yes, that sword should be on the wall with the crayon bat'leths.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

So much wrong with this picture. So, so much.

He is holding the crappy wallhangar sword all wrong.
The fact that he is holding a crappy wallhangar sword.
The sensei patch coupled with the poom belt.
The fact that he apparently consented to be photographed with all of the above.
The fact that he should not have had side shot taken of him.

Yes, that sword should be on the wall with the crayon bat'leths.

Daniel

Daniel, don't insult the guy. He's the star of the Foot Fist Way II!