Is bjj original

[Alan0354]

People have been combing systems for a long time. Probably as long as there have been systems. My primary art is a blend of several arts, and predates Lee’s synthesis. And it’s certainly not the first to do so.

He's the one that really made it great. Gracie was definitely not the first one that do BJJ, He just stunned the world in UFC 1 and 2. Timing is everything. You see BJJ school all over the country, all because of Royce.............Not that he's that good, just timing. Same as BL. BL and Royce is THE MOST influential two in the last 50 years, like it or not.

 

[Alan0354]

Georg Simon Ohm came up with Ohm's Law that is being used even today as the most basic law in electricity and all that. Do you know this had been proofed not correct long time ago that V=IR is not correct?

We honor Georg Simon Ohm over time because that was a big step and all the following discovery were because of him. So even though Ohm's Law really doesn't work on all cases, we honor him because without him, we won't know what we end up. Judging from today, he's way behind. But we honor him for his contribution. Just like Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie.

Sure, so many people said they did it earlier, but who's the one that came out, stood there and took on the challenge and proofed themselves........while the others just sitting back and hiding. Then later on claim they knew better. There's a word for those kind.........................

 

[drop bear]

He's the one that really made it great. Gracie was definitely not the first one that do BJJ, He just stunned the world in UFC 1 and 2. Timing is everything. You see BJJ school all over the country, all because of Royce.............Not that he's that good, just timing. Same as BL. BL and Royce is THE MOST influential two in the last 50 years, like it or not.

He sold bjjj to rich people. Which is of course a much better marketing strategy.

Interestingly a guy called me mestre bimba sold capoeira to rich people. And is considered the father of that martial art.

 

[Alan0354]

He sold bjjj to rich people. Which is of course a much better marketing strategy.

Interestingly a guy called me mestre bimba sold capoeira to rich people. And is considered the father of that martial art.

Gracie won in the first 2 UFC, that shocked the whole MA scene. I was stunned, so were a lot of people. He sold BJJ by winning, nobody talked about grappling before that. Now becomes the main stay. look at all the Gracie BJJ schools around, it's big money business now. He shocked the world more than Bruce Lee.

Now, I am not saying Gracie is good anymore in today's standard, neither is Bruce Lee. Like everything else, The world moved on. Gracie got creamed, humiliated not that many years after by Matt Huges. BUT, it's Royce Gracie that changed the whole thing. I give credit to both Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie for all the improvement in MA in the last 50 years.

 

[Alan0354]

I am surprised nobody talk about good old wrestling. Since Gracie paved the road for grappling, he disappeared and a bunch of wrestlers took over UFC for a few years. People like Dan Severn, Don Frye, mark Coleman etal all had their moment of glory in UFC. Could it be Royce Gracie could see he can't win with those bigger grabblers, so he conveniently disappeared until they have weight class? I bet he did not expect to be humiliated by Matt Huges in his own grabbling game.

 

[drop bear]

Gracie won in the first 2 UFC, that shocked the whole MA scene. I was stunned, so were a lot of people. He sold BJJ by winning, nobody talked about grappling before that. Now becomes the main stay. look at all the Gracie BJJ schools around, it's big money business now. He shocked the world more than Bruce Lee.

Now, I am not saying Gracie is good anymore in today's standard, neither is Bruce Lee. Like everything else, The world moved on. Gracie got creamed, humiliated not that many years after by Matt Huges. BUT, it's Royce Gracie that changed the whole thing. I give credit to both Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie for all the improvement in MA in the last 50 years.

I think the Gracies were successful as an entrepreneur before that. I could be wrong. But BJJ was originally for street punks and scumbags. The Gracies sold it to rich professional people.

I don't necessarily think either Bruce Lee or Royce Gracie really exploded the MMA concept.

It was where gyms suddenly turned around and said they need to find subject matter experts. (I don't know who was the first. Mabye guys like John will)

Which was generally getting a bjj guy to come teach. But evolved in to specialist coaches. This hadn't really happened before.

Bruce Lee would train with a bunch of guys and distill that in to a hybrid that people would learn. But that does not give the full experience.

To have experts in different fields under the same banner was the super weapon of MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the Gracies were successful as an entrepreneur before that. I could be wrong. But BJJ was originally for street punks and scumbags. The Gracies sold it to rich professional people.

I don't necessarily think either Bruce Lee or Royce Gracie really exploded the MMA concept.

It was where gyms suddenly turned around and said they need to find subject matter experts. (I don't know who was the first. Mabye guys like John will)

Which was generally getting a bjj guy to come teach. But evolved in to specialist coaches. This hadn't really happened before.

Bruce Lee would train with a bunch of guys and distill that in to a hybrid that people would learn. But that does not give the full experience.

To have experts in different fields under the same banner was the super weapon of MMA.

That's a great distillation. I have some Judo background, and bring some of that to my teaching. But that's not the same experience as if I bring in a Judo instructor even as a guest instructor (much less as a permanent SME).

 

[Oily Dragon]

, nobody talked about grappling before that.

Except for grapplers, judoka, sambo, Shuai Jiao etc, to whom there was nothing shocking about a well trained jiujitsu expert taking down strikers with no grappling experience (or in people like Shamrock or Severns case, showing the value of cardio endurance and agility over brute strength).

Kron said the same thing in that vid I posted, that "nobody was fighting on their backs" until Helio. "Nobody used a guard."

It's just not true. It doesn't even make sense.

What about Luta Livre?? Even if we just stick to Brazil, the GJJ/BJJ claim doesn't ring true. If anything, it shows again that Kosen judo is king in Brazil for about 100 years, being the source of many ground techniques in both BJJ and Brazilian submission wrestling.

So the only thing the UFC really changed was money between hands. The actual full contact fighting world was well ahead of UFC. If anything became MMA it was Vale Tudo, not GJJ, even though it played a role.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Seriously anybody here know about this dude? I have yet to meet the BJJ dude who does. It's like a shock for some to hear there were other elite grapplers in Brazilian history who weren't Gracies, and didn't train jiujitsu at all.

He defeated a Gracie, then his student defeated a Gracie, and then he might have fought Helio, but Helio insisted he wear a gi and Hatem refused.

Euclydes Hatem - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Seriously anybody here know about this dude? I have yet to meet the BJJ dude who does. It's like a shock for some to hear there were other elite grapplers in Brazilian history who weren't Gracies, and didn't train jiujitsu at all.

He defeated a Gracie, then his student defeated a Gracie, and then he might have fought Helio, but Helio insisted he wear a gi and Hatem refused.

Euclydes Hatem - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Luta Livre guys didn't do nearly as good a job of advertised themselves as the Gracies did, so they aren't as well known. But they were an essential part of the evolution of BJJ. They provided much of the competition which made BJJ practitioners improve their skills. Also, BJJ and Luta Livre practitioners learned from each other. Helio pretended that they didn't for marketing purposes, but his brother George was happy to train with Luta Livre practitioners as well as compete against them.

 

[jayoliver00]

Being refuted about what? You made a request for sources about grappling from a part of the world you're unfamiliar with, I delivered. It was for your benefit/education, that's all. You're acting as if we're debating, we're not. You're the one making arguments, ie the De La Riva guard is some sort of martial innovation (even though it's found in Judo and infinite leg hook variations standing and supine exist in all sorts of MA going back forever). That's what I call a pretty weak argument.

You're throwing out challenges now, tsk tsk? Somebody definitely isn't calm here, but it's not me, clearly.

That's two people so far you've DYETB'd. It's not very nice to do that, challenge people for information, etc.

Guess you just wanted to hear it again, ok, here you go:

You're doing the same thing, yet crying about it when your being refuted.
You can't show proofs that these modern BJJ techniques existed in history: Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo,

well because, you're a White belt.

 

[Jimmythebull]

You can't show proofs that these modern BJJ techniques existed in history:

who cares. do you honestly believe the gracie´s invented it all. very naive. they might have changed a few grips ..etc but not their invention. Look at every karate ryu. all goes back to the basic school in Okinawa & some chinese influence.

 

[jayoliver00]

who cares. do you honestly believe the gracie´s invented it all. very naive. they might have changed a few grips ..etc but not their invention. Look at every karate ryu. all goes back to the basic school in Okinawa & some chinese influence.

well Oily cares, as he's the one trying to argue; so shhhh, adults are talking.

 

[Jimmythebull]

so shhhh, adults are talking.

i guess i pushed the right button...

 

[jayoliver00]

i guess i pushed the right button...

me 2

 

[Oily Dragon]

Guess you just wanted to hear it again, ok, here you go:

You're doing the same thing, yet crying about it when your being refuted.
You can't show proofs that these modern BJJ techniques existed in history: Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo,

well because, you're a White belt.

I just proved you wrong with video from the 50's, dude, and a very well written article.

It's history dude, move along.

 

[Jimmythebull]

me 2

weak

 

[jayoliver00]

weak

i was right.

 

[Oily Dragon]

1979, Nanatei Judo comp. De La Riva turns 14.

View attachment 28911

A: Kobo Kenpo Karate-Do
B,C : the silly Bubishi strikes again

View attachment 28912

Bumpity bump.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Speaking of Google, this only took about a second to verify, but there are no fewer than 7 technical universities in Japan with Judo clubs that teach this going back at least 70 years.

huh, the De La Riva guard too. And many others.


1952, dude. De La Riva wouldn't born for another 13 years.

Bump bump bump.