Is bjj original

[Buka]

Bill Wallace pretty much said the same about them. Always in their favour

Bill has a lot of strong opinions, about everything. Always has. Not all of them right.

 

[Jimmythebull]

I don't really need friends, but thanks for the kind thought, Jimmy.

Bill has a lot of strong opinions, about everything. Always has. Not all of them right.

Never said he was but regarding the gracies..he's correct

 

[Buka]

Never said he was but regarding the gracies..he's correct

There's quite a long history between both parties. They're probably both partially correct.

 

[punisher73]

Sometimes, effective technique doesn't have to be exotic or fancy. You hit it on the nail on this. Look at Muy thai, there's NOTHING pretty and exotic about it, it's like street fight, but it's the best in striking arts. BJJ is not pretty at all. But combine the two, you got something big.


BL is really the first MMA combining TKD, Boxing and WC. BJJ just modify Judo and improve it. You don't have to invent anything, just take the effective ones and WIN.


It's the Mixed Martial Arts. No one art can do it all, take whatever is effective and combine together. Cut the fancy moves, keep the practical and simple and effective stuffs.


Now, there are people that enjoy MA as an art and want to keep the tradition, that's perfectly good, no argument on that. It's like I like this particular painting, I don't have to give reason as long as I enjoy it.

Gotta disagree about BL being the first "MMA" guy. Granted BL was the first BIG NAME to start talking about that, but when he was in California during that time, a lot of the guys were cross training with each other and weren't so set by styles. BL was also exposed to Kajukenbo guys, who LITERALLY created their art from "KArate, JUdo, KENpo, and BOxing/chinese boxing.

Sijo Emperado (and the other founders) taught and trained to take what is useful and was doing it long before BL came along.

 

[Alan0354]

Gotta disagree about BL being the first "MMA" guy. Granted BL was the first BIG NAME to start talking about that, but when he was in California during that time, a lot of the guys were cross training with each other and weren't so set by styles. BL was also exposed to Kajukenbo guys, who LITERALLY created their art from "KArate, JUdo, KENpo, and BOxing/chinese boxing.

Sijo Emperado (and the other founders) taught and trained to take what is useful and was doing it long before BL came along.

He was the one that beat out all the others. He was the one that combined TKD kicks, boxing hands and WC stuffs together.

A win is the ticket. Talk is cheap. I just hate people talk after BL died. He was the BEST back in the days, not just fighting, he was the first to push for weight training and conditioning while all the so called "grand masters" still smoke, bone and skin and just talk.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Gotta disagree about BL being the first "MMA" guy. Granted BL was the first BIG NAME to start talking about that, but when he was in California during that time, a lot of the guys were cross training with each other and weren't so set by styles. BL was also exposed to Kajukenbo guys, who LITERALLY created their art from "KArate, JUdo, KENpo, and BOxing/chinese boxing.

Sijo Emperado (and the other founders) taught and trained to take what is useful and was doing it long before BL came along.

Cool, I never knew that.

I'd argue MMA style fighters were actually common in the old world, and only recently do we have all these specialized schools in various arts. Ancient gladiators etc were far more well rounded (had to be, otherwise they died).

Kleitomachos of Thebes was an Olympian boxer, wrestler, and pankration fighter. I'd say he was MMA, and he was hot around 200 AD. And he was probably pretty tricky with leg hooks and no gi magic.

 

[jayoliver00]

What is it with you and "making an argument". You sound like Stephen Molyneux.

You're doing the same thing, yet crying about it when your being refuted.

I've trained with plenty of BJJ players, and can talk about BJJ all weekend with you if you want. I've been a grappler for over 20 years. Don't start throwing down over belt colors dude, or you are not going to make many friends.

"20 years" but won't even tell me the belt color?

It's truly mazing you think any of those 4 BJJ guards/techs are advanced, or innovative.

Calm down and understand the context to what I'm saying first.

And did you just google them? Let's see you do the Berimbolo and post the video; I'm only asking for the tech. demo, not even live sparring. Go ahead and list the excuses as to why you won't.

And I think it's really weird you're harping on the Bubishi, a manual that most certainly heavily influenced Judo, the source of BJJ.

Do you really think people just invented certain ways to pull a jacket here or there, or certain ways to hook legs inside or out?

Quit getting all hysterical and understand the context first. You're just repeating what you said the last time.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You're doing the same thing, yet crying about it when your being refuted.

"20 years" but won't even tell me the belt color?

Calm down and understand the context to what I'm saying first.

And did you just google them? Let's see you do the Berimbolo and post the video; I'm only asking for the tech. demo, not even live sparring. Go ahead and list the excuses as to why you won't.

Quit getting all hysterical and understand the context first. You're just repeating what you said the last time.

Being refuted about what? You made a request for sources about grappling from a part of the world you're unfamiliar with, I delivered. It was for your benefit/education, that's all. You're acting as if we're debating, we're not. You're the one making arguments, ie the De La Riva guard is some sort of martial innovation (even though it's found in Judo and infinite leg hook variations standing and supine exist in all sorts of MA going back forever). That's what I call a pretty weak argument.

You're throwing out challenges now, tsk tsk? Somebody definitely isn't calm here, but it's not me, clearly.

That's two people so far you've DYETB'd. It's not very nice to do that, challenge people for information, etc.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Speaking of Google, this only took about a second to verify, but there are no fewer than 7 technical universities in Japan with Judo clubs that teach this going back at least 70 years.

huh, the De La Riva guard too. And many others.

Then prove it. Show that these techniques already existed in Judo. It should be easy as there are tons of Judo videos on Youtube.

Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo,

1952, dude. De La Riva wouldn't born for another 13 years.

 

[Oily Dragon]

1979, Nanatei Judo comp. De La Riva turns 14.

A: Kobo Kenpo Karate-Do
B,C : the silly Bubishi strikes again

 

[Jimmythebull]

1979, Nanatei Judo comp. De La Riva turns 14.

View attachment 28911

A: Kobo Kenpo Karate-Do
B,C : the silly Bubishi strikes again

View attachment 28912

Judo is still the King

 

[Oily Dragon]

Judo is still the King

Also in the silly Bubishi.

I keep using the Japanese, because this is a serious thread on BJJ.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Judo is still the King

In what way?

 

[dunc]

There are a few techniques that have been around in Kosen Judo for a long time (old videos from the 50s) that were independently invented by folks in the BJJ community. De La Riva guard is a good example. I am quite happy to assume that De La Riva came up with the guard totally independently despite the fact that it existed in (the fairly niche) Kosen Judo
Nothing unusual about that in human endevours

Once again reiterating that beyond these examples there has been and continues to be a lot of technical innovation and progression in BJJ

 

[Oily Dragon]

independently invented

What about "discovered".

The light bulb is an invention. How I hook you and invert your body with my legs and arms isn't, really.

 

[dunc]

What about "discovered".

The light bulb is an invention. How I hook you and invert your body with my legs and arms isn't, really.

Yeah probably that's a better word for it

 

[Jimmythebull]

In what way?

The randori

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The randori

What about the randori?

 

[Jimmythebull]

What about the randori?

it´s exciting

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it´s exciting

Ah! Agreed. Especially if it includes groundwork.