Inward Blocks - Upside/Downside Circle

[Michael Billings]

... since I am in Austin, TX. I used to drive up to Arlington/Dallas/Ft. Worth, when he was going there regularly. Are you working out with Marcus Bonfigliano ... if so, asked him if he has had to stand on any doghouses lately , and tell him howdy for me. He and Wes are a couple of my favorite younger Kenpo guys.

Yes, I would like to hear a little more about the "twelve points". My guard also comes up as proximity dictates, but this is not "formalized" in my teaching ... well, except when I point it out by tapping a student on the noggin with an open hand or finger.

How is this related to inward blocks .... is it a Point of Origin issue?

I will be out of town this weekend and off line, so if you do not reply or get a response, it is unavoidable.

-MB

 

[KenpoIsIt]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Sorry for the misspelling and we aren't talking about the same circle.
Sean

Mr. Wold

Please explain what you are talking about then. You stated that we Sepulveda guys do the inward blocks differently. I explained how we are taught to perform them. I am just looking for clarification.

Kenpoisit

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt
Mr. Wold

Please explain what you are talking about then. You stated that we Sepulveda guys do the inward blocks differently. I explained how we are taught to perform them. I am just looking for clarification.

Kenpoisit

I've been racking my brain to do just that. Clarify...
Lets use the cutting blade of the fore arm to make this clearer. Before I go on I am willing to concede that maybe I'm the one doing it differently from everyone else. The blade of my fore arm when doing an inward block with the lead hand out of a left neutral will cut at about 1:30 where as I see a lot of "other" kenpoists'(no pun intended) blades making contact at a 3:00 angle. Yes it seems built in for very good reasons and it does eliminate a lot of problems that may occurr doing it the first way but it does change the dynamics of things a bit.
Sean

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I've been racking my brain to do just that. Clarify...
Lets use the cutting blade of the fore arm to make this clearer. Before I go on I am willing to concede that maybe I'm the one doing it differently from everyone else. The blade of my fore arm when doing an inward block with the lead hand out of a left neutral will cut at about 1:30 where as I see a lot of "other" kenpoists'(no pun intended) blades making contact at a 3:00 angle. Yes it seems built in for very good reasons and it does eliminate a lot of problems that may occurr doing it the first way but it does change the dynamics of things a bit.
Sean

Sean,

Your description of the proper executon of a left inward block is right on the money. The tragectory of the block should be toward 1:30 as you describe. It is outlined this way in Ed Parker's Infinite Insights Into Kenpo Vol. III. There!!! The nefarious Billy Lear finally agreed with you.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Well, the trajectory can still be 1:30 and the contact made rotating the arm furhter so as not to block with the blade of the forearm.
Unless your blocking using a hammer fist, of course :rofl:

 

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

. Are you working out with Marcus Buonfiglio ... if so, asked him if he has had to stand on any doghouses lately , and tell him howdy for me. He and Wes are a couple of my favorite younger Kenpo guys.

Years of therapy to get rid of the nightmares about doghouses born of shame as a result of taking a bite of a hamburger before the senior belts. I was functioning well, the nightmares abated...but noooo...you gatta bring it all back...uhmm..you still standing in that tree or have they finally let you down. (I believe it was because of a potatoe chip wasn't it? Insideous things those potatoe chips.)

Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I've been racking my brain to do just that. Clarify...
Lets use the cutting blade of the fore arm to make this clearer. Before I go on I am willing to concede that maybe I'm the one doing it differently from everyone else. The blade of my fore arm when doing an inward block with the lead hand out of a left neutral will cut at about 1:30 where as I see a lot of "other" kenpoists'(no pun intended) blades making contact at a 3:00 angle. Yes it seems built in for very good reasons and it does eliminate a lot of problems that may occurr doing it the first way but it does change the dynamics of things a bit.
Sean

We block the same way you described, toward 1:30. Blocking the other way tends to tie you up. My instructor uses the term "cross blocking" when we see people blocking toward 3:00 because you're crossing your own body to block that way.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
I will explain the outer rim principle in detail if you are not familiar with the term as it is unique to the Universal Kenpo Federation.

Actually, the Outer Rim Concept was coined by Mr. Parker a long time ago and is not unique to the UKF. It is listed in Ed Parker's Encyclopedia Of Kenpo. Not trying to sound disrespectful, just thought I'd clarify.

 

[KenpoIsIt]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I've been racking my brain to do just that. Clarify...
Lets use the cutting blade of the fore arm to make this clearer. Before I go on I am willing to concede that maybe I'm the one doing it differently from everyone else. The blade of my fore arm when doing an inward block with the lead hand out of a left neutral will cut at about 1:30 where as I see a lot of "other" kenpoists'(no pun intended) blades making contact at a 3:00 angle. Yes it seems built in for very good reasons and it does eliminate a lot of problems that may occurr doing it the first way but it does change the dynamics of things a bit.
Sean

Mr. Wold

Now I follow you. I have seen that also. We are taught to shoot to the 1:30 angle as you are. As a matter of fact, one of Mr. Parker's quotes speaks of that very topic. "The sooner you get to X, the greater Y will be". I suspect that those you see making contact to 3:00 have forgotten the lesson or never got it in the first place.

Kenpoisit

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt

Mr. Wold

Now I follow you. I have seen that also. We are taught to shoot to the 1:30 angle as you are. As a matter of fact, one of Mr. Parker's quotes speaks of that very topic. "The sooner you get to X, the greater Y will be". I suspect that those you see making contact to 3:00 have forgotten the lesson or never got it in the first place.

Another good Ed Parker Quote:

To beat action, meet it.

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
Actually, the Outer Rim Concept was coined by Mr. Parker a long time ago and is not unique to the UKF. It is listed in Ed Parker's Encyclopedia Of Kenpo. Not trying to sound disrespectful, just thought I'd clarify.

I had never heard another school use the term before and it is so prominant in the UKF.

Thanks again,
Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[Michael Billings]

Outer Rim has been around since at least the mid-80's and every seminar I have been to take it as a given that the participants know what it is. I start it on day one since it relates to Point of Origin and Economy of Motion (definitions I require for Yellow Belt.)

Thanks Scott for clarification on the Inward Block, I have heard this about "Sepulveda's" students for a year and had no idea where it came from given that you block just like I see everyone else, including myself, block.

-MB

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... since I am in Austin, TX. I used to drive up to Arlington/Dallas/Ft. Worth, when he was going there regularly. Are you working out with Marcus Bonfigliano ... if so, asked him if he has had to stand on any doghouses lately , and tell him howdy for me. He and Wes are a couple of my favorite younger Kenpo guys.

Yes I workout with Marcus, actually he is my instructor and he replied himself to the dog house comment so I will leave it at that. He told me the story last night. It was a good laugh. The funniest part is that it was Darryl Simpson that nailed you both. I have known him for a while as well.

Yes, I would like to hear a little more about the "twelve points". My guard also comes up as proximity dictates, but this is not "formalized" in my teaching ... well, except when I point it out by tapping a student on the noggin with an open hand or finger.

How is this related to inward blocks .... is it a Point of Origin issue?

Twelve points is more about defining your outer rim. Anything that comes into your outer rim must be dominated. The traditional guard, as I orginally leaerned it, was the front hand out in front, arm bent at a 45 degree at the elbow, and then hand abhout chin high. The back hand was placed with the foram laying against your stomach with your hand slightly forwrd of your rib cage. The problem with this is that you have three of your weapons in the same height zone. Meaning, your front arms elbow and your back arms fist and elbow are all in the same height zone. Twleve points refers to covering four points in each of the three zones. 4 x 3 = 12. Hence the name. You can try this to get a clearer picture. From a square horse, do a right verticle outward block. Now drop you elbow about four inches and extend your fist diagonally towards your centerline but not all the way to your center line. It should look as though you have started to do an inward block but stopped about half . Your foram should be at a forty-five degree angle from your elbow. Now mirror this with yout left hand. You should see a clear picture of the upper triangle or top of the diamond. Your forarms arms should look kinda like the roof of a house. Now step back with either leg to a neutral bow. which ever hand is back drop it about for inches or about one fist down. you should do this by dropping the elbow slightly not changing the angle of your for arm. What you end up with is Twelve points. lets assume you stepped to a left neutral bow and that your a facing a mirror. Your left elbow is slightly wider than your left fist. These are the first two width points. following in the same direction the next thing would be your right fist and just outside that is your right elbow, the other two width zones. Still loooking in the mirror your left fist is the highest pint then your right fist then your left elbow and finally your right elbow. These are the four hieght zones that you are covering. Lastly, turn sideways to the mirror, your left fist is the farthest weapon from your body, then your right fist , then your left elbow and finally your right elbow. These would be the four depth zones that your are covering. When I learned this and started going through my stances while in twelve points it became very clear how my stances do all the work. For instance, when I bring my hands into twelve points and step into block my hand is already on the proper line. By stepping in to the neutral bow it exacutes my block for me. I may then simply extend my block slightly to transition to a bracing angle check.

I hope that this explanation is a little clearer than mud. I will try and post some pictures some time to make it even more clear.


Salute,
Mike Miller

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Outer Rim has been around since at least the mid-80's and every seminar I have been to take it as a given that the participants know what it is. I start it on day one since it relates to Point of Origin and Economy of Motion (definitions I require for Yellow Belt.)

Thanks Scott for clarification on the Inward Block, I have heard this about "Sepulveda's" students for a year and had no idea where it came from given that you block just like I see everyone else, including myself, block.

-MB

Like I said, maybe I'm the one that's different. I will attempt to further describe my method as opposed to what I have seen at the Vegas Camp and the (Hearst via Sepulveda) Spokane method.
We both use a flick of the wrist to make contact with the incomming missle attack; however, I tweek my wrist so that the blade starts out at 9:00 and perhaps these other methods have the blade facing 11:00 or 12:00. The subsequent flick will quite naturaly be different. The Sepulveda method seems to fit quite well with the delayed sword type return to the opposite shoulder, where as the method I use will cause you to make a desision between the delayed sword and the Muay thai or sword of destruction type of return. There, that ought to confuse everyone.
Sean

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
Twelve points is more about defining your outer rim. Anything that comes into your outer rim must be dominated. The traditional guard, as I orginally leaerned it, was the front hand out in front, arm bent at a 45 degree at the elbow, and then hand abhout chin high. The back hand was placed with the foram laying against your stomach with your hand slightly forwrd of your rib cage. The problem with this is that you have three of your weapons in the same height zone. Meaning, your front arms elbow and your back arms fist and elbow are all in the same height zone. Twleve points refers to covering four points in each of the three zones. 4 x 3 = 12. Hence the name. You can try this to get a clearer picture. From a square horse, do a right verticle outward block. Now drop you elbow about four inches and extend your fist diagonally towards your centerline but not all the way to your center line. It should look as though you have started to do an inward block but stopped about half . Your foram should be at a forty-five degree angle from your elbow. Now mirror this with yout left hand. You should see a clear picture of the upper triangle or top of the diamond. Your forarms arms should look kinda like the roof of a house. Now step back with either leg to a neutral bow. which ever hand is back drop it about for inches or about one fist down. you should do this by dropping the elbow slightly not changing the angle of your for arm. What you end up with is Twelve points. lets assume you stepped to a left neutral bow and that your a facing a mirror. Your left elbow is slightly wider than your left fist. These are the first two width points. following in the same direction the next thing would be your right fist and just outside that is your right elbow, the other two width zones. Still loooking in the mirror your left fist is the highest pint then your right fist then your left elbow and finally your right elbow. These are the four hieght zones that you are covering. Lastly, turn sideways to the mirror, your left fist is the farthest weapon from your body, then your right fist , then your left elbow and finally your right elbow. These would be the four depth zones that your are covering. When I learned this and started going through my stances while in twelve points it became very clear how my stances do all the work. For instance, when I bring my hands into twelve points and step into block my hand is already on the proper line. By stepping in to the neutral bow it exacutes my block for me. I may then simply extend my block slightly to transition to a bracing angle check.

I hope that this explanation is a little clearer than mud. I will try and post some pictures some time to make it even more clear.


Salute,
Mike Miller

Very cool, never heard this explanation for hand placement before. Someone put a lot of thought into the Dimensional Zone Theory with this. I like it. :asian:

 

[KenpoIsIt]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Like I said, maybe I'm the one that's different. I will attempt to further describe my method as opposed to what I have seen at the Vegas Camp and the (Hearst via Sepulveda) Spokane method.
We both use a flick of the wrist to make contact with the incomming missle attack; however, I tweek my wrist so that the blade starts out at 9:00 and perhaps these other methods have the blade facing 11:00 or 12:00. The subsequent flick will quite naturaly be different. The Sepulveda method seems to fit quite well with the delayed sword type return to the opposite shoulder, where as the method I use will cause you to make a desision between the delayed sword and the Muay thai or sword of destruction type of return. There, that ought to confuse everyone.
Sean

Mr. Wold

Our method of executing the inward block can be found beginning on page 10 in Book 3 of the Infinite Insight Series. It is not a Sepulveda method as he was taught by Mr. Parker directly. Each time I attended a seminar by Mr. Parker, he demonstrated the inward block in the same manner.

If I am seeing your inward block correctly, you have added some additional torque just prior to making contact. My question now would be this. Does it work for you? If so, great.

When you worked with the guys from Spokane who are under the instruction of Mr. Hirst, did their blocks work for them?

It is my understanding from the last conversation that I had with Mr. Parker that the idea is to take the principles, concepts, rules, etc.. and tailor them to each individuals needs and level of skill.

Kenpoisit

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt:

When you worked with the guys from Spokane who are under the instruction of Mr. Hirst, did their blocks work for them?

I don't think the idea is whether or not the blocks will work, but whether or not they are more effective or less effective. Anything will work given the right circumstances, the question is how to make it work for most circumstances. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt
Mr. Wold

Our method of executing the inward block can be found beginning on page 10 in Book 3 of the Infinite Insight Series. It is not a Sepulveda method as he was taught by Mr. Parker directly. Each time I attended a seminar by Mr. Parker, he demonstrated the inward block in the same manner.

If I am seeing your inward block correctly, you have added some additional torque just prior to making contact. My question now would be this. Does it work for you? If so, great.

When you worked with the guys from Spokane who are under the instruction of Mr. Hirst, did their blocks work for them?

It is my understanding from the last conversation that I had with Mr. Parker that the idea is to take the principles, concepts, rules, etc.. and tailor them to each individuals needs and level of skill.

Kenpoisit

I have spent some time studying the strengths and weaknesses of both methods. I have added no extra torque. I have a different starting point. When we put our fist to our ear we just make sure that the palm(while in a fist) faces our oponent. As the elbow drops y'all start torquing before we do; so, it is you that adds torque not us. As for which method is better that would depend on the student. I have already written that your way eliminates the problem of over-extension but with that your blocks make contact on the reverse motion. We take to muay thai concepts a lot easier because of the similarities. I feel you would have to make more of an adjustment than we do or did. Let me say once again that I will accept that we do it weird. Mr. Parker never thought to correct us so we just went with it.

 

[KenpoIsIt]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
I don't think the idea is whether or not the blocks will work, but whether or not they are more effective or less effective. Anything will work given the right circumstances, the question is how to make it work for most circumstances. At least that's how I see it.

Mr. Lear

I agree with you to a point, however, I am still of the thinking that making it work is more important than which method is more effective. For example: If I do the inward block against a right lapel grab, and my block clears the opponent's arm, that to me is making it work. Another method of executing the same block may clear the arm and leave a nice bruise on the opponent's arm, which would be more effective. In the end they have both accomplished the same result. Nice to see you back on MT.

Kenpoisit

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by KenpoIsIt
Mr. Lear

I agree with you to a point, however, I am still of the thinking that making it work is more important than which method is more effective. For example: If I do the inward block against a right lapel grab, and my block clears the opponent's arm, that to me is making it work. Another method of executing the same block may clear the arm and leave a nice bruise on the opponent's arm, which would be more effective. In the end they have both accomplished the same result. Nice to see you back on MT.

I have to agree with you to a point as well. I think that the destination in this case is more important than how you got there... I'm only saying that the least expensive, least aggrivating, most direct, and most damaging way is the best way to teach it.