Interesting quotes, any comments?

[Doc]

Taken from the old CKF (Chinese Kenpo Federation) web site discussions and seminars:

Huk Planas: (At a seminar last month)

Quote:All American Kenpo is, is the study of Motion." End Quote

Sean Kelly:

If you read my bio in "THE JOURNEY," I specifically mention how we are the only profession that does not have a standardization of amateur vs. professional. In boxing, an amateur is required to have a certain number of fights under his belt before he can be considered a for his professional debut. Another way of putting this would be, when you start the sport of baseball, you have little league, minor league, then finally the major league (professional status).

However, in the martial arts, as soon as students obtain the level of black belt, they qualify themselves as professional vs. amateur, business owners, and qualified instructor/teachers. In point of fact, however, we know that obtaining a black belt is like graduating high school-- one must further one's education by going on to "college." Business practice is a separate field of expertise in and of itself.

Ed Parker made the point at many of my seminars that there were many different levels of people holding black belts. Since his art was actually based on a science, he made the comment that there were black belts who were good salesmen of motion (could sell the - - commercial - - art), mechanics of motion (could fix it), and, finally an engineer of motion (could both sell it and fix it). To summarize, the future of the art has a high percentage of people who are wearing 3rd degree, 4th degree and higher rank, who should be wearing 3rd and 4th degree "amateur" black belts. Do we have 5th degree amateurs ((salesman)) out there? Yes we do.


Martin Wheeler:

I think this was part of the brilliance of the founder Ed Parker that he created a conceptually based fighting system rather than a purely technique based system (even though it appears to be technique based on the surface). .......


Sounds a bit like something I said. At least it's something to discuss for some.
:asian:

 

[kenpo_cory]

Interesting, I particularly like Mr. Sean Kelly's quote that obtaining a black belt is like graduating high school-- one must further one's education by going on to "college."

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Doc

Taken from the old CKF (Chinese Kenpo Federation) web site discussions and seminars:

Huk Planas: (At a seminar last month)

Quote:All American Kenpo is, is the study of Motion." End Quote

Sean Kelly:

If you read my bio in "THE JOURNEY," I specifically mention how we are the only profession that does not have a standardization of amateur vs. professional. In boxing, an amateur is required to have a certain number of fights under his belt before he can be considered a for his professional debut. Another way of putting this would be, when you start the sport of baseball, you have little league, minor league, then finally the major league (professional status).

However, in the martial arts, as soon as students obtain the level of black belt, they qualify themselves as professional vs. amateur, business owners, and qualified instructor/teachers. In point of fact, however, we know that obtaining a black belt is like graduating high school-- one must further one's education by going on to "college." Business practice is a separate field of expertise in and of itself.

Ed Parker made the point at many of my seminars that there were many different levels of people holding black belts. Since his art was actually based on a science, he made the comment that there were black belts who were good salesmen of motion (could sell the - - commercial - - art), mechanics of motion (could fix it), and, finally an engineer of motion (could both sell it and fix it). To summarize, the future of the art has a high percentage of people who are wearing 3rd degree, 4th degree and higher rank, who should be wearing 3rd and 4th degree "amateur" black belts. Do we have 5th degree amateurs ((salesman)) out there? Yes we do.


Sounds a bit like something I said. At least it's something to discuss for some.
:asian:

Hey Doc,

All true, unfortunetely with titles such as Head Instructor (at 3rd black), where you are merely a humble instructor in the traditional arts and so on, and without age requirement for such titles and above, one's mouth and head has tendencies to be bigger than their foot!!!

Good to see you back.

:asian:

 

[Doc]

You know I was going to sneek up on you last week, but there just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day. Especially since thee's no freeway in your neck of the woods. I'm in my busy season right now, and finishing up on the Maganificent Seven DVD.

Hope to see you soon.

Respects

 

[Zoran]

It's too bad CKFOnline is gone. I will miss that site.

Originally posted by Doc

Martin Wheeler:

I think this was part of the brilliance of the founder Ed Parker that he created a conceptually based fighting system rather than a purely technique based system (even though it appears to be technique based on the surface). .......


Sounds a bit like something I said. At least it's something to discuss for some.
:asian: [/B]

Interesting quote there. I sometimes find some AK practioners get so wrapped up in the techniques, rules, principles, and etc of EPAK, that they lose focus of what it's about. Logical and practical self defense. Sort of the lose the forest in the trees concept.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Doc

You know I was going to sneek up on you last week, but there just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day. Especially since thee's no freeway in your neck of the woods. I'm in my busy season right now, and finishing up on the Maganificent Seven DVD.

Hope to see you soon.

Respects

Hey Doc,

Just make sure not sneak up from the right flank.(LOL)
Anytime Doc, would be an honor to have you visit. Please check my web site for Hermosa schedule, since I am teaching out of three locations these days. Btw, I am not too far from Erickson's(sp?) studio.

Respectfully,

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

I noticed their site was down.
What happened to it?

Mr. Kelley makes some good points.

If you are going to run a school you really need 4 things (at least):
1. Martial Skill, including some history etc and this is what most people get from training
2. Business training which I think is how NAPMA and other companies found their niche
3. The ability to teach, which again is something that most Kenpo instructors have by the time they reach 1st Degree and certainly 4th/5th in EPAK
4. Some credibility to draw clients. In the past this was often Rank, but this is no longer sufficient with inflation etc. A good tournament reputation is often used like Billy Blanks traded on for example, but again, organizations that offer certifications for fitness levels and so on like the Cooper Institute in Dallas etc are carving a niche here I think.

So I would have to largely agree with Mr. Kelley that running a school is something a lot of people can jump into when they are not adequately prepared. I think this was the thrust of his point.

As far as amateur vs pro, this doesn't quite work for me because most of these situations relate strictly to athletes. You are an amateur athlete and then with practice you are a pro athlete. Most athletes play a sport for example as an amateur, and then play better and get paid as a pro.

With a studio owner you have someone who goes from amateur fighter perhaps, to independent businessman. It is not the same path.

Most pro athletes have managers and trainers etc and only worry about playing their sport so this analogy does not work well for me.

But if you look at as "How do you get from amateur athlete to sucessful businessman" then there is a gulf there and it is not always well-provided for, or maybe it is not even provided for strictly by training in proficiency in the Art.

I was speaking with a Krav Maga person recently and he pointed out that just because you have a Black Belt doesn' t mean you can go out and open a studio. You have to go on and get certified for that specifically, so those guys see this "athlete to businessman" transition as something that needs addressing.

But the way he put it made it sound like a Black Belt wasn't inherently qualified to teach and I think that is too bad. I mean, if you spend 5 years learning to do something, then you should have some ability to teach it if you have been at all focused on that goal during your training. Where I have studied, teaching has been integral to learning and often it is said that when you make it to Black Belt you really start to learn, so that being the case, I have often been aware that you will learn more and sometimes even learn faster when you are teaching. Teaching has never really been a separate issue for me. Even as a lower belt I have been asked to help those behind me.

So as far as whether the amateur athlete to professional teacher situation goes, I think it can be done if you try, but as stated, learning to run a successful business on top of this is another matter.

How many people go to college and get a teaching certificate and then go found their own Academy for example? Not many, they usually go get hired by someone else to teach. Not to win Academic competitions. Not to run a school off the bat, but just to teach.

So that is my 6:30 am answer. I hope it makes some sense. I'm stuck at work trying to get out of here to go to camp and see Mr. Trejo and Mr. Conatser and some of my other good MartialTalk buddies. Thank you.
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka

Hey Doc,

Just make sure not sneak up from the right flank.(LOL)
Anytime Doc, would be an honor to have you visit. Please check my web site for Hermosa schedule, since I am teaching out of three locations these days. Btw, I am not too far from Erickson's(sp?) studio.

Respectfully,

:asian:

Yes sir. I saw your schedule. You're all over the place. How do you do it? I'm going crazy with what I have to deal with, but I'll catch you.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by cdhall

I noticed their site was down.
What happened to it?

Mr. Kelley makes some good points.

If you are going to run a school you really need 4 things (at least):
1. Martial Skill, including some history etc and this is what most people get from training
2. Business training which I think is how NAPMA and other companies found their niche
3. The ability to teach, which again is something that most Kenpo instructors have by the time they reach 1st Degree and certainly 4th/5th in EPAK
4. Some credibility to draw clients.

I disagree. A qualified teacher by the time you make black belt is pretty far fetched, especially in the 2 year black belt schools. But the question is teach what? You seem to agree with the "high school" analogy, so my question is, "Is a high school graduate qualified the day he graduates to teach high school?

As far as amateur vs pro, this doesn't quite work for me because most of these situations relate strictly to athletes. You are an amateur athlete and then with practice you are a pro athlete. Most athletes play a sport for example as an amateur, and then play better and get paid as a pro.

I think you missed the point there. As I understand it, he was talking about the levels of knowledge between an amateur and professional. He makes a point there are "amateur 5th degree salesmen of motion" as opposed to the more knowledgeable "engineers." This is the destinction I think he uses to separate the "amateur vesus professional."

But the way he put it made it sound like a Black Belt wasn't inherently qualified to teach and I think that is too bad. I mean, if you spend 5 years learning to do something, then you should have some ability to teach it if you have been at all focused on that goal during your training.

Precisely the point. If a truly good student spends his time trying to learn AND increase his physical skills when does he become a teacher? It's not like studying just an academic curriculum, and if it was they still wouldn't be qualified. Here we have the problem of learning something intellectually and developing the competent physical skills simultaneously. I agree that teacher certification has to be a separate process AND separate curriculum with materials and continuous testing. I have students as high as 6th who are not certificated to teach because they choose to focus on their own study rather than grow with curriculum. Much like what happened to Ed Parker. Every generation he "lost" bb's who did not want to re-examine information they had already "passed."

Anyway, you don't have to be a bb to run a school. Ed Parker placed his son in law in charge of the Pasadena school to run its business when he was a yellow belt. MA knowledge and business have nothing to do with each other and are best kept separate anyway.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Zoran

It's too bad CKFOnline is gone. I will miss that site.



Interesting quote there. I sometimes find some AK practioners get so wrapped up in the techniques, rules, principles, and etc of EPAK, that they lose focus of what it's about. Logical and practical self defense. Sort of the lose the forest in the trees concept.

Sir, you never cease to amaze me with your powers of observation and interesting insights.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka

Hey Doc,

All true, unfortunetely with titles such as Head Instructor (at 3rd black), where you are merely a humble instructor in the traditional arts and so on, and without age requirement for such titles and above, one's mouth and head has tendencies to be bigger than their foot!!!

Good to see you back.

:asian:

Yes sir, thats true especially in AK because the average master rank is held by someone fairly young. AK has more "masters" than any other art ever. That's what commercial does to any art. Not necessarily a bad thing in itself but, it is what it is. People who began their training in the seventies are
10ths now. Everybody can't be an Ed Parker, but the commercial (motion) system allows this because you literally run out of information (not discoveries).

 

[Michael_Browne]

Originally posted by Doc

I disagree. A qualified teacher by the time you make black belt is pretty far fetched, especially in the 2 year black belt schools. But the question is teach what? You seem to agree with the "high school" analogy, so my question is, "Is a high school graduate qualified the day he graduates to teach high school?


Doc, I'm definitely going to agree with you on this one. As I am in the process of testing several people for Black Belt right now, I have been thinking of this quite a bit.

One of the fundamental flaws inthe martial arts is the lack of, excuse me - pleathra of accrediting agencies. There are but a handful of accrediting agencies on the University level for education. This, as we know, sets a common standard of education and training. Unfortunately there is not a common standard of education in regard to the black belt, every school is different and there are probably 1000 or more accrediting agancies (associations, etc.). So, unlike an accrdited college degree, different black belts hold different weight. This is one of the reasons so many are skeptical of black belts from other schools or systems.

I personally would have compared the black belt to an undergraduate degree from a university. If one were to get a job after college, he/ she would be prepared to be trained appropriately by their new company. If they were to continue in school for a graduate degree they may have the opportunity to be a TA. Finishing a graduate degree migh allow some one to gain a low-middle level teaching position. Completeing a PhD would then allow a person to move on to a higer level teaching position and also begin post-doctorate work.

Moving to the rank labeling system Mr. Parker had used, Black Belt is known as Junior Instructor. One does not even become an Assitiant Instructor until 2nd Degree, and Finally a full Instructor at 3rd Degree.

Anyway, I agree.

Michael Browne

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Zoran
Interesting quote there. I sometimes find some AK practioners get so wrapped up in the techniques, rules, principles, and etc of EPAK, that they lose focus of what it's about. Logical and practical self defense. Sort of the lose the forest in the trees concept.

Sorry to jump in. I just got pointed here.

That's why I went to Systema Zoran. I got tired of people thinking that the techniques were american kenpo. Personally I think they're not. But people think that working these techniques and these techs alone will show you kenpo. I see them as little examples. But if you don't move beyond the examples and use the theory behind them you never really ever graduate now do you? You regurgitate. So many people are hung up on doing all these techs right that they seem to forget that the rules change and are fluid with what is going on. Or as I like to say, "Shoulda, coulda, woulda...DIDN'T!"

American Kenpo - Soon to be competing with TKD everywhere.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Sorry to jump in. I just got pointed here.

That's why I went to Systema Zoran. I got tired of people thinking that the techniques were american kenpo. Personally I think they're not. But people think that working these techniques and these techs alone will show you kenpo. I see them as little examples. But if you don't move beyond the examples and use the theory behind them you never really ever graduate now do you? You regurgitate. So many people are hung up on doing all these techs right that they seem to forget that the rules change and are fluid with what is going on. Or as I like to say, "Shoulda, coulda, woulda...DIDN'T!"

Originally posted by GouRonin
American Kenpo - Soon to be competing with TKD everywhere.

I disagree. American Kenpo in many ways IS American TKD. You're absolutely right and I like the way you expressed it. The techniques are as you say learning tools that also have practical application, but they are not the art as some may think. I respect what you did "Big D." Good to see you out and about.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael_Browne

Originally posted by Doc

I disagree. A qualified teacher by the time you make black belt is pretty far fetched, especially in the 2 year black belt schools. But the question is teach what? You seem to agree with the "high school" analogy, so my question is, "Is a high school graduate qualified the day he graduates to teach high school?


Doc, I'm definitely going to agree with you on this one. As I am in the process of testing several people for Black Belt right now, I have been thinking of this quite a bit.

One of the fundamental flaws inthe martial arts is the lack of, excuse me - pleathra of accrediting agencies. There are but a handful of accrediting agencies on the University level for education. This, as we know, sets a common standard of education and training. Unfortunately there is not a common standard of education in regard to the black belt, every school is different and there are probably 1000 or more accrediting agancies (associations, etc.). So, unlike an accrdited college degree, different black belts hold different weight. This is one of the reasons so many are skeptical of black belts from other schools or systems.

I personally would have compared the black belt to an undergraduate degree from a university. If one were to get a job after college, he/ she would be prepared to be trained appropriately by their new company. If they were to continue in school for a graduate degree they may have the opportunity to be a TA. Finishing a graduate degree migh allow some one to gain a low-middle level teaching position. Completeing a PhD would then allow a person to move on to a higer level teaching position and also begin post-doctorate work.

Moving to the rank labeling system Mr. Parker had used, Black Belt is known as Junior Instructor. One does not even become an Assitiant Instructor until 2nd Degree, and Finally a full Instructor at 3rd Degree.

Anyway, I agree.

Michael Browne

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Doc
I disagree. American Kenpo in many ways IS American TKD. You're absolutely right and I like the way you expressed it. The techniques are as you say learning tools that also have practical application, but they are not the art as some may think. I respect what you did "Big D." Good to see you out and about.

I'm all about breaking the rules and pushing the envelope Doc. I was taught to think for myself. I'm not now, nor will I ever be, one of the "sheeple."

I agree with Huk that American Kenpo is the study of motion. The problem is that many people after they study the curriculum decide they really don't want to be explorers but rather regurgitators to stroke their own ego.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael_Browne

Originally posted by Doc

I disagree. A qualified teacher by the time you make black belt is pretty far fetched, especially in the 2 year black belt schools. But the question is teach what? You seem to agree with the "high school" analogy, so my question is, "Is a high school graduate qualified the day he graduates to teach high school?


Doc, I'm definitely going to agree with you on this one. As I am in the process of testing several people for Black Belt right now, I have been thinking of this quite a bit.

One of the fundamental flaws inthe martial arts is the lack of, excuse me - pleathra of accrediting agencies. There are but a handful of accrediting agencies on the University level for education. This, as we know, sets a common standard of education and training. Unfortunately there is not a common standard of education in regard to the black belt, every school is different and there are probably 1000 or more accrediting agancies (associations, etc.). So, unlike an accrdited college degree, different black belts hold different weight. This is one of the reasons so many are skeptical of black belts from other schools or systems.

I personally would have compared the black belt to an undergraduate degree from a university. If one were to get a job after college, he/ she would be prepared to be trained appropriately by their new company. If they were to continue in school for a graduate degree they may have the opportunity to be a TA. Finishing a graduate degree migh allow some one to gain a low-middle level teaching position. Completeing a PhD would then allow a person to move on to a higer level teaching position and also begin post-doctorate work.

Moving to the rank labeling system Mr. Parker had used, Black Belt is known as Junior Instructor. One does not even become an Assitiant Instructor until 2nd Degree, and Finally a full Instructor at 3rd Degree.

Anyway, I agree.

Michael Browne

Mr. Browne,

I feel if you've been in my desk drawer looking at my notes. Point of fact the way our curriculum is constructed, a 3rd degree black is an intern. One of the things that I am really trying to do is de-emphasize"rank" as a measurement of knowledge. "Stripes" have been removed from belts in favor of small more descreet "military like" markings on the lapel. To be honest, my ultimate goal is to ween the student body completely. In an academic environment, "who's who in the zoo" is fairly apparent when you walk into a classroom.

Our student body recognizes belts as only an indicator of the courses you have passed. Nothing more. All rank is emeritus or honorary. The only thing that counts are the different level of teaching certifications we issue. Therefore you may have two people the same rank, but one is an instructor and one is not. teaching credentials must be renewed for the level taught.

Accreditation has come down to each individual school essentially. No wonder it's a mess.

Good "talking" to you!

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I agree with Huk that American Kenpo is the study of motion. The problem is that many people after they study the curriculum decide they really don't want to be explorers but rather regurgitators to stroke their own ego.

Sort of following the same lines of thought(s). Recently I heard Lee Wedlake make a passing comment of "American Kenpo is a non-traditional system that has become traditional".

If AK is to be a non-traditional system, it should allow for individualism. AK is a concept, a way, an approach, a method, and etc. It has been stated that techniques are a tool. Yet, when people change, adjust, add, subtract, and generally adjust the techniques and curriculum, they are accused by others of being a radical, or worse. Much of the time, without really understanding what that person is doing. Change is a part of growth!

Just a "radicals" point of view. My instructor once told me; "God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth. So you can listen twice as much as you talk." But, since you have 2 eyes and 10 fingers, that rule doesn't apply to the internet.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Zoran

Sort of following the same lines of thought(s). Recently I heard Lee Wedlake make a passing comment of "American Kenpo is a non-traditional system that has become traditional".

If AK is to be a non-traditional system, it should allow for individualism. AK is a concept, a way, an approach, a method, and etc. It has been stated that techniques are a tool. Yet, when people change, adjust, add, subtract, and generally adjust the techniques and curriculum, they are accused by others of being a radical, or worse. Much of the time, without really understanding what that person is doing. Change is a part of growth!

And ironically, this is the issue I had when I was considering dealing witht the IKKA so long ago.......

 

[GouRonin]

I have to say, despite what I said earlier. There is still good Kenpo and good Kenpoists out there. Just not as many as you would hope there would be.