Interesting fight

DeLamar.J

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This is a clip of royce gracie vs some kung fu guy with 15 years of training. The guy obveously needs a little grappling training. I also dont think this guy represents kung fu very well either. Some of the kung fu guys I have seen would have frony kicked gracie right in his head diving in like that. I think some of these guys representing some of the striking arts are no where near experts, and it gives karate,kung fu ect a bad name. I have never seen an expert striker in any of those cage fights before. But yet they all claim to be experts. anyway here is the fight

http://www.subfighter.tv/vid/highlights/fight/Royce Gracie vs Kung Fu.wmv

Tell me what you think.
 

MA-Caver

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You're kidding right?
It started out well, two MA's going at it.. then as soon as it hit the mat... it looked exactly like every other street fight I've ever seen by non-MA's. I mean c'mon. I'm sorry I'm not dissing any of the styles these two combatants have trained in but they just went right back to the type of fights you find in back of alleyways, barrooms, parking lots, high-school hallways and bathrooms and so on as soon as they went to "ground".
Another thing I wasn't really impressed with... the two looked like they were seriously out to hurt another. What's up with that? In a DOJO no less?
Sparring as far as I know it to be is controlled, orderly even between two different styles.
What I saw was mindless punching, elbowing, kicking (using heels on the back) and overall the usual sloppy tangle of limbs you can find in any fight anywhere.
Sigh, mebbe I dont' know what I'm talking about. But then you did ask what did (we) think. That's my two bits on it.
 
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DeLamar.J

DeLamar.J

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MACaver said:
You're kidding right?
It started out well, two MA's going at it.. then as soon as it hit the mat... it looked exactly like every other street fight I've ever seen by non-MA's. I mean c'mon. I'm sorry I'm not dissing any of the styles these two combatants have trained in but they just went right back to the type of fights you find in back of alleyways, barrooms, parking lots, high-school hallways and bathrooms and so on as soon as they went to "ground".
Another thing I wasn't really impressed with... the two looked like they were seriously out to hurt another. What's up with that? In a DOJO no less?
Sparring as far as I know it to be is controlled, orderly even between two different styles.
What I saw was mindless punching, elbowing, kicking (using heels on the back) and overall the usual sloppy tangle of limbs you can find in any fight anywhere.
Sigh, mebbe I dont' know what I'm talking about. But then you did ask what did (we) think. That's my two bits on it.
Kinda sounds like you saying royce gracie is a sloppy fighter and dont know what hes doing :uhoh:
 

MA-Caver

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That wasn't my intention. :asian: Forgive me if that's the way it came across.
I spoke only from my observation of the "fight" and I meant to edit my original post to inquire if it was a fight or a spar?
Like I said "mebbe I don't know what I'm talking about." But I've seen enough street fights and yeah that's what I saw in the video yeah the guy in white was whupping that shirtless guy's ***. If that's what he was using "royce gracie" then obviously that is what was effective as far as the ground. But it was ... sloppy.
You asked. :idunno: :asian:
 
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auxprix

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Generally speaking though, ground combat is a bit messy looking. It may not be pretty to watch, but it is effective.
 

MA-Caver

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auxprix said:
Generally speaking though, ground combat is a bit messy looking. It may not be pretty to watch, but it is effective.
Thanks... I think that's what I meant. :D :asian:
 

Flatlander

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I would say that the 'kung fu' guy was not an adequate representation of kung fu skill. And he does need some grappling training. He was very uncomfortable on the ground.
 

James Kovacich

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DeLamar.J said:
This is a clip of royce gracie vs some kung fu guy with 15 years of training. The guy obveously needs a little grappling training. I also dont think this guy represents kung fu very well either. Some of the kung fu guys I have seen would have frony kicked gracie right in his head diving in like that. I think some of these guys representing some of the striking arts are no where near experts, and it gives karate,kung fu ect a bad name. I have never seen an expert striker in any of those cage fights before. But yet they all claim to be experts. anyway here is the fight

http://www.subfighter.tv/vid/highlights/fight/Royce Gracie vs Kung Fu.wmv

Tell me what you think.

That is very old. It goes back farther that the first UFC and thats the same Kung-Fu fighter (Jason De Luca) that Royce fought in the UFC and broke Jasons arm. The UFC was actually their rematch.
 

Enson

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the kung fu guy looked like no expert to me. i mean what was up with the wannabe jkd stance? anyway i saw royce gracie open many times but i guess when the grapplers set the rules they don't let you counter theirs. no eye gouge? no pressure points? i mean it looked like a helpless rabbit trying to get away from a snake and the snake says you can't bite back. not to say i would have done better, but that was a one sided fight to begin with. i guess the kung fu guy should have read the disclaimer that he couldn't fight back. horrible
 

mcjon77

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This was a clash between 2 strategies regarding fighting an opponent. The determining factor was how each man implemented his strategy considering the enviornment they were in. Delucia's strategy was obviously to keep the fight standing and in striking range, in an attempt to subdue Royce through strikes (possibly a knockout). Royce's strategy was to get the fight to the ground as quickly has possible, to minimize the damage Delucia could commit with his strikes. I know this is stating the obvious, but I am doing it to illustrate how the enviornment played a key role in Delucia's loss.

Royce's strategy for countering Delucia's strikes seemed to be to stay out of range of Delucia's power strikes until he found an opening and then close the gap and go for a clinch. Delucia's counter to Royce's attempt to close the gap seemed to be to move backwards and circular while raining strikes on Royce before Royce can get a chance to get a secure clinch which nullifies a lot of Delucia's strikes.

As far as implimentation is concerned, watch the video and notice a few things, for about a second or 2, when Royce is going for the clinch, Delucia is actually doing a decent job preventing Royce from securing it and getting closer by raining strikes, spining, and moving backward. In the end, what is it that allows Royce to secure the lock on Delucia? THE WALL! Delucia eventually backs himself into a wall, which allows Royce to secure the lock. From there it is all over.

The reason why I bring this up is to ask what would have happened in a more open area, or with a striker who was more aware of his enviornment? Remember Kieth Hackney's Fight with Royce? Everytime Royce came in and tried for the takedown, Hackney rained those strikes on him. Hackney was able to prevent multiple takedown attempts before finally succumbing. In fact, Royce said that his fight with Hackney was one of the hardest he ever had, harder than his fight with Kimo. I'm not saying BJJ isn't effective (it is) or that strikeres rule (they don't). I'm only trying to illustrate how much the envoirment can work for or against you. I am willing to bet that Hackney trained with people skilled in takedowns, in some enclosed area, to get comfortable handling someone like Royce.

I have more to say but I have to go work out.

Jon
 

Bod

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This is one of the reasons I practise Pakua. Walking around people while throwing strikes looks easier than it actually is. And it looks hard.

The pakua incorporates some stand-up grappling into it's theory seamlessly. The idea is that you avoid the oponents grappling while moving into grapple yourself.

Still that doesn't make you a grappler. Only grappling can do that.

As for ground fighting looking messy, I can assure you that it is far more technical than it looks at first glance.

When you first see a boxing match it just looks like fists flying everywhere. I'm sure that most fight fans even after many years still see the process as a gigantic battle of wills and strength, with fists flying about in the middle, rather than seeing the match as a technical exchange.

It's the same with groundfighting. If you don't understand the values of the positions, and the technical requirements to get from one to the other then it is all meaningless and chaotic.

Biting. Yep, biting is not allowed. If it was the non-groundfighter wouldn't have a chance in submission fighting. BJJ sees pins as transitionary techniques because they are not submissions. So if Royce Gracie had someone in Kesa-Gatame (sorry: Judo term) and a submission was not available, he'd use the advantage of the pin to move into position for a submission. In that position he might get bitten or grabbed by the testicles under different rules. However if he bit his opponent on the nose from the pin - easy to do - then he'd get a submission there and then.

Weapons are problematic to the ground-fighter, since most pins nullify most kicking, biting and grabbing techniques but do not guard against a hidden weapon. Most ground-fighters are aware of this, but it must be said that hidden weapons are problematic during any phase of fighting.
 

OULobo

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This is the usual example of what happens in a fight anywhere, it goes to the ground. It looks to me that it was a disrespectful challange from DeLuca, that was handled in the usual Gracie way. I don't think there were any rules in this fight and I don't think it was sparring. When the adrenaline gets going and egos start showing, most technique goes out the window. It's the consequences of confrontation. Strikers tend to get hyper and rely heavily on that coveted "one shot knockout", but it rarely happens. When the pace slows because it's on the ground it allows the grappler to think, modify his stradegy and apply technique he's trained. Let's remember that things like eye gouges and pressure point strikes are very hard to apply and sometimes totally ineffective, and that is not mentioning the psychological effects of confrontation that make you think more about stopping the shots that are coming at your face, than the possibility of an opening. Real fighting is sloppy as hell and never looks pretty no matter how trained the combatants are, whether on their feet or on the ground. Watch a bare knuckle match or a boxing match with amatures and you'll very little technique and a ton of slop. It's the 2nd law of Thermodynamics (the law of entropy), everything tends to decay to chaos.
 

Enson

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all i'm saying is one needs to be good at both. grappeling works. in fact i study grappeling in my dojo. what i don't like is that some grapplers think it is the only way to victory. what works well in ufc might not work that well on the streets or with mulitple attackers. remember in the streets submission doesn't sometimes make the fight stop.
 
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Kevin Walker

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The Gracies are renown for picking bouts with 'selected opponents'.
 
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markulous

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This guy had NO strategy whatsoever! He has the size and strength advantage, he is a better striker then him, so what does he do? He throws his most powerful sidekick at him in almost desperation! And gets taken to the ground because it's so telegraphed.

The guy should have A LOT more patience. Just avoid going to the ground at all costs and throw some jabs and quick front kicks and set something up. It's not like Royce is going to bob and weave and then give you this monster uppercut like Mike Tyson or something. And then the narrator is saying this guy represents all strikers and Gracie Jiu Jitsu is superior to it! Whatever...
 

Bod

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Now that looks like quite a young Royce Gracie. He clearly hasn't got the hang of the no gi game at this point, yet he still manages throughout the fight to maintain classic groundfighting position. It is clear that his opponent has no idea how to cope with the groundfighting aspects. He keeps moving from bad position to worse, all it takes is for Royce to loosen him up with a few punches. At one point he has a guilotine choke but from the under-mount. He has no idea that this is the only thing keeping him safe and worries about the punches, when in fact he should be trying to get guard, or better still upa (reverse the mount) and pass Royce's guard. Even I could have upa'd Royce from that position, but I sincerely doubt whether I could have passed his guard. In fact I know I couldn't. He'd have finished me and many people far better than me from his back. Maybe he was hoping for the reverse. In the end he got a far better opportunity: his opponent relinquished his head control!

Of course, Royce got the hang of the no gi game pretty well in later years, and maintained better control of his opponents in later matches. He would now be able to convert most of those positions into a submission without the aid of a gi.

If there had been no rules, then Royce could have easily snapped his opponents fingers, or even bitten them off at one point instead of going for the choke. Only once may he have been in a position to get bitten himself, and even then I think it unlikely.

Once again, it appears that the two are wheeling around haphazardly, but Royce is in technically better position (i.e. in a control position) for the whole of the match. groundfighting only looks ugly to the uninitiated. Once you know how it works you can see the skill. You know the possibilities from a position, even if you could not pull them off yourself, and the chaotic nature disappears.

Finally that was not traditional kung fu. High stances against a grappler do not work. Why do you think that traditional styles have low stances? To train the legs? No! To avoid being prone to grappling. Just because that got ignored when judo went out of fashion and Bruce Lee style kick-boxing came in in the 60s doesn't make it any less true. Low stances are not a cure all but they help.
 
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