Intent Yi (意)

[Wing Woo Gar]

Am I missing something here?

It was merely a reply. No need to read much into it. Ignore it if you please.

 

[windwalker099]

but I just asked -
“Same Trick said:
What do you mean with “opponents internal aspects” ?”
Do you mean their mind ?

It's not their "mind" thats affected although its the mind that reacts to what the body feels or senses.

In your previous post, you mentioned it's low level skill, "It work in a psychological sense" "it's trickery" . ect.

Maybe you'er addressing something different ?

If you get a chance to watch the "Wang Peisheng Demonstrating Push Hands Complete Version" video,
It should be quite common in China on their channels its been out for quite a while.
A good video covering many aspects.

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei also explaines it quite well along with an interesting demo, that should be viewable
in China...

 

[Same Trick]

It's not their "mind" thats affected although its the mind that reacts to what the body feels or senses.

In your previous post, you mentioned it's low level skill, "It work in a psychological sense" "it's trickery" . ect.

Maybe you'er addressing something different ?

If you get a chance to watch the "Wang Peisheng Demonstrating Push Hands Complete Version" video,
It should be quite common in China on their channels its been out for quite a while.
A good video covering many aspects.

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei also explaines it quite well along with an interesting demo, that should be viewable
in China...

Yes I will look for the video, but my question was toward that you wrote - “ opponents “ and their “internal aspects “ - what do you mean with “ opponents internal aspects” ? Is it the opponents Yi, Qi ?

Since you are writing “opponent” that would mean someone opposing “you”, in what way does the opponent oppose with his internal aspects- projecting qi or a mental attitude toward you ?

 

[windwalker099]

Yes I will look for the video, but my question was toward that you wrote - “ opponents “ and their “internal aspects “ - what do you mean with “ opponents internal aspects” ? Is it the opponents Yi, Qi ?

Since you are writing “opponent” that would mean someone opposing “you”, in what way does the opponent oppose with his internal aspects- projecting qi or a mental attitude toward you ?

That’s a fair question. By “internal aspects,” I don’t mean the opponent’s mind or intent specifically. It’s about how the body — shaped by internal alignment and intent — influences how someone reacts, often in subtle, structural ways rather than purely mental ones.

The body reacts to what the mind senses, and the mind reacts to what the body senses. Master Gao Zhuang Fei describes this interplay as the shifting states of “virtual” and “real” — a dynamic exchange between what is perceived and what is expressed.

This is why what’s shown in the video looks so different from “external” methods. It isn’t about acting on the opponent’s outside frame but about interacting with these inner conditions, which then manifest outwardly in their movement and balance. One way of looking at it....it can be explained in other ways that reference and depend on ones understanding of yi, qi...ect...directly something a little hard to discuss with out a common experantly frame work.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Mind/intent methodology is necessarily a component of function within the Tai Chi context. Tai Chi Chuan however, as a martial art, must be functional as such. Videos of demonstration are worthless as evidence in my opinion. In my experience, these are generally equal to stage performance chicanery. Can they do it while I hit them? Can they use it to prevent me hitting them? Do they have a student that can? I quickly lose interest in lack luster conversations that tend towards “ I have a secret “, or “you haven’t experienced my level of knowledge”. These are the trappings of the hucksters, the charlatans, and the self deluded. A person may very well have abilities beyond the norm or the easy explanation, but they will not have developed that in the absence of the physical ability I speak of. In short, it’s a litmus test that a person of real skill will have no issue with. Now, some will claim age, or infirmity as limiting the ability to prove, to this I invite their student to stand in. I can say for certain that no challenge of this sort was ever denied by any of my teachers, thus my strident position and opinion on the matter. It’s pointless as a discussion unless the discussion is in person and includes pressure testing. We have all seen the dismal results of the many challenges to multiple Tai Chi instructors by a certain Chinese MMA fighter. What is missing there? The “mumbo jumbo” is real, but not without the physical reality.

No one with any common sense could argue those points if they're to be taken at face value, and within the realm of demonstrable skill/ability in a test of non-cooperative contact. But if we suspend our disbelief for a bit and look at mind/intent in a broader sense as it seems to be presented in the the videos windwalker has posted, and in consideration of the questions that were asked about what is happening and why - if at all - the reactions of those in the video are different, we can look a little deeper into the workings of intent beyond the scope of martial practicality or functional fighting method.

The facets of intent being practiced and demonstrated in the videos ww posted are actually quite common, and a fair guestimate would be that everyone reading this thread has experienced similar phenomena many times throughout their life. When we're attentive and aware while driving, we interact with other drivers on that same 'plane', and especially at intersections when we encounter other, equally attentive and aware, drivers. With no more than eye-contact as a cue, we rightly anticipate the intention of the other driver. Sometimes there is no eye-contact at all as we, or they, 'read' the intent of the other by the way they or we direct our gaze. It also happens in hallways and stairwells when two people pass each other while going in opposite directions. We either cede or assume the right-of-way with no physical cues at all.

So what is happening in that moment when the intent of both people 'connect' in that way? In a taiji context, it could be said that both people are each simultaneously empty and full, receiving and releasing, or, in a perfect state of Central Equilibrium. Gao, Zhuang Fei talked a bit about that in the article windwalker linked in a recent post.

That state of anticipatory responsiveness is one of the subjects being explored in the kinds of work windwalker showed in post #29. There are other facets of intent that explorers of this type of work engage in as a means of cultivating a deeper understanding of taiji mind/intent that goes far beyond the instances of two people spontaneously 'getting out of each others way' - although, that is a central theme in sensing and listening to intent as it manifests in its different 'forms'. For most of us (myself included) re-creating those instances in the laboratory is extremely difficult and otherwise impossible without having the tutelage of someone who has a certain level of mastery of that ability that they are able to impart it in some small way.

In creating the conditions by which intent can be explored on that level and making the work accessible and repeatable in one's own training, there has to be the abandonment of martial context at first because the state of being that windwalker is wanting to discuss in this thread is an incredibly delicate and tenuous thing and especially so when there is no mechanism for recall available to those not having had the touch of someone else who is able to demonstrate it. But it can be done, albeit in a limited way, with a narrow window offering entry to that state on an interactive level. And it's enough that it can be nurtured and explored as one's understanding develops so that it may even become tenable to some extent.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No one with any common sense could argue those points if they're to be taken at face value, and within the realm of demonstrable skill/ability in a test of non-cooperative contact. But if we suspend our disbelief for a bit and look at mind/intent in a broader sense as it seems to be presented in the the videos windwalker has posted, and in consideration of the questions that were asked about what is happening and why - if at all - the reactions of those in the video are different, we can look a little deeper into the workings of intent beyond the scope of martial practicality or functional fighting method.

The facets of intent being practiced and demonstrated in the videos ww posted are actually quite common, and a fair guestimate would be that everyone reading this thread has experienced similar phenomena many times throughout their life. When we're attentive and aware while driving, we interact with other drivers on that same 'plane', and especially at intersections when we encounter other, equally attentive and aware, drivers. With no more than eye-contact as a cue, we rightly anticipate the intention of the other driver. Sometimes there is no eye-contact at all as we, or they, 'read' the intent of the other by the way they or we direct our gaze. It also happens in hallways and stairwells when two people pass each other while going in opposite directions. We either cede or assume the right-of-way with no physical cues at all.

So what is happening in that moment when the intent of both people 'connect' in that way? In a taiji context, it could be said that both people are each simultaneously empty and full, receiving and releasing, or, in a perfect state of Central Equilibrium. Gao, Zhuang Fei talked a bit about that in the article windwalker linked in a recent post.

That state of anticipatory responsiveness is one of the subjects being explored in the kinds of work windwalker showed in post #29. There are other facets of intent that explorers of this type of work engage in as a means of cultivating a deeper understanding of taiji mind/intent that goes far beyond the instances of two people spontaneously 'getting out of each others way' - although, that is a central theme in sensing and listening to intent as it manifests in its different 'forms'. For most of us (myself included) re-creating those instances in the laboratory is extremely difficult and otherwise impossible without having the tutelage of someone who has a certain level of mastery of that ability that they are able to impart it in some small way.

In creating the conditions by which intent can be explored on that level and making the work accessible and repeatable in one's own training, there has to be the abandonment of martial context at first because the state of being that windwalker is wanting to discuss in this thread is an incredibly delicate and tenuous thing and especially so when there is no mechanism for recall available to those not having had the touch of someone else who is able to demonstrate it. But it can be done, albeit in a limited way, with a narrow window offering entry to that state on an interactive level. And it's enough that it can be nurtured and explored as one's understanding develops so that it may even become tenable to some extent.

I disagree, your argument might be valid if they could demonstrate anything other than flying a compliant human kite that jumps into the wind for them. Instead, a plethora of videos of people jumping away from the masters touch. Not one of the videos shown as “evidence of work“ has a noncompliant element. Not a single one. Not one pressure test. When we have seen these “masters” put to the test, the result is dismal and quite frankly, an embarrassment to those who have the actual abilities of which you speak. A larger embarrassment to Tai Chi Chuan practitioners as a whole, and a disservice to those who seek real abilities. Wuxia and imagination is not a legitimate replacement for hard work.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No one with any common sense could argue those points if they're to be taken at face value, and within the realm of demonstrable skill/ability in a test of non-cooperative contact. But if we suspend our disbelief for a bit and look at mind/intent in a broader sense as it seems to be presented in the the videos windwalker has posted, and in consideration of the questions that were asked about what is happening and why - if at all - the reactions of those in the video are different, we can look a little deeper into the workings of intent beyond the scope of martial practicality or functional fighting method.

The facets of intent being practiced and demonstrated in the videos ww posted are actually quite common, and a fair guestimate would be that everyone reading this thread has experienced similar phenomena many times throughout their life. When we're attentive and aware while driving, we interact with other drivers on that same 'plane', and especially at intersections when we encounter other, equally attentive and aware, drivers. With no more than eye-contact as a cue, we rightly anticipate the intention of the other driver. Sometimes there is no eye-contact at all as we, or they, 'read' the intent of the other by the way they or we direct our gaze. It also happens in hallways and stairwells when two people pass each other while going in opposite directions. We either cede or assume the right-of-way with no physical cues at all.

So what is happening in that moment when the intent of both people 'connect' in that way? In a taiji context, it could be said that both people are each simultaneously empty and full, receiving and releasing, or, in a perfect state of Central Equilibrium. Gao, Zhuang Fei talked a bit about that in the article windwalker linked in a recent post.

That state of anticipatory responsiveness is one of the subjects being explored in the kinds of work windwalker showed in post #29. There are other facets of intent that explorers of this type of work engage in as a means of cultivating a deeper understanding of taiji mind/intent that goes far beyond the instances of two people spontaneously 'getting out of each others way' - although, that is a central theme in sensing and listening to intent as it manifests in its different 'forms'. For most of us (myself included) re-creating those instances in the laboratory is extremely difficult and otherwise impossible without having the tutelage of someone who has a certain level of mastery of that ability that they are able to impart it in some small way.

In creating the conditions by which intent can be explored on that level and making the work accessible and repeatable in one's own training, there has to be the abandonment of martial context at first because the state of being that windwalker is wanting to discuss in this thread is an incredibly delicate and tenuous thing and especially so when there is no mechanism for recall available to those not having had the touch of someone else who is able to demonstrate it. But it can be done, albeit in a limited way, with a narrow window offering entry to that state on an interactive level. And it's enough that it can be nurtured and explored as one's understanding develops so that it may even become tenable to some extent.

.

 

[Appledog]

Mind/intent methodology is necessarily a component of function within the Tai Chi context. Tai Chi Chuan however, as a martial art, must be functional as such. Videos of demonstration are worthless as evidence in my opinion. In my experience, these are generally equal to stage performance chicanery. Can they do it while I hit them? Can they use it to prevent me hitting them? Do they have a student that can?

Yes, thank you for saying it so eloquently. Tai Chi has a definite method and a definite practice which does not depend on intellectual understanding. For every concept or theory in Tai Chi there must be a definite exercise which is given to inform you of that concept. Without having that exercise you are left to try and explain things intellectually and you won't be able to demonstrate it.

Naturally, if you went through the process of learning it properly, you would have direct physical experience with the movements and applications and would be able to demonstrate them very simply. It does not require several minutes of explanation. In fact I don't think an intellectual understanding is required to learn this at all. The conceptual understanding only comes after you get it via the practice.

There is just one thing I don't understand. When I see a demo of the stage performance chicanery type -- and, there are some truly breathtaking examples in this thread -- I wonder, why are they trying to hide the real way of practice, if they want so badly to explain it to people?

I quickly lose interest in lack luster conversations that tend towards “ I have a secret “, or “you haven’t experienced my level of knowledge”. These are the trappings of the hucksters, the charlatans, and the self deluded. A person may very well have abilities beyond the norm or the easy explanation, but they will not have developed that in the absence of the physical ability I speak of. In short, it’s a litmus test that a person of real skill will have no issue with.

There are secrets. But they are presented last, not first. Sun Jian Yun said that naturally, for those with more time to practice, and who are more dedicated, and who spend more time with the teacher, there is more opportunity to learn and practice more things. But these aren't really 'secrets', more about things that come about due to opportunity. If you lead-in with secret techniques or demos, you're going to attract the wrong crowd. And you're right, it's a bad look.

There is a lot of blood in the water because of the recent Tai Chi vs. MMA stuff. I think this is a good thing, as long as it is done in a respectful way. I don't like how some people talk about their challengers.

 

[Marsha Larts]

I disagree, your argument might be valid if they could demonstrate anything other than flying a compliant human kite that jumps into the wind for them. Instead, a plethora of videos of people jumping away from the masters touch. Not one of the videos shown as “evidence of work“ has a noncompliant element. Not a single one. Not one pressure test. When we have seen these “masters” put to the test, the result is dismal and quite frankly, an embarrassment to those who have the actual abilities of which you speak. A larger embarrassment to Tai Chi Chuan practitioners as a whole, and a disservice to those who seek real abilities. Wuxia and imagination is not a legitimate replacement for hard work.

The post wasn't intended to be an argument to what you wrote, as was made clear in the very first line.

It looks at and outlines the ideas purported to be the basis of a body of internal work which explores the interactive nature of mind/intent without the precepts of Tai Chi Chuan's boxing method getting in the way of that work.

A few relatable examples were given of everyday occurrences of the phenomenon in order to lend basis to the notion I posed earlier:

I thought it might be helpful to approach the topic from a direction that allows common experiences to be examined on the level of every day interactions, or at least something that could be isolated for the purpose of experimentation as a training exercise

The value and interest some may find in the exploration of those ideas can stand on its own merits while having nothing to do with the things you've cited, or embarrassing the 'real' Tai Chi people.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, thank you for saying it so eloquently. Tai Chi has a definite method and a definite practice which does not depend on intellectual understanding. For every concept or theory in Tai Chi there must be a definite exercise which is given to inform you of that concept. Without having that exercise you are left to try and explain things intellectually and you won't be able to demonstrate it.

Naturally, if you went through the process of learning it properly, you would have direct physical experience with the movements and applications and would be able to demonstrate them very simply. It does not require several minutes of explanation. In fact I don't think an intellectual understanding is required to learn this at all. The conceptual understanding only comes after you get it via the practice.

There is just one thing I don't understand. When I see a demo of the stage performance chicanery type -- and, there are some truly breathtaking examples in this thread -- I wonder, why are they trying to hide the real way of practice, if they want so badly to explain it to people?



There are secrets. But they are presented last, not first. Sun Jian Yun said that naturally, for those with more time to practice, and who are more dedicated, and who spend more time with the teacher, there is more opportunity to learn and practice more things. But these aren't really 'secrets', more about things that come about due to opportunity. If you lead-in with secret techniques or demos, you're going to attract the wrong crowd. And you're right, it's a bad look.

There is a lot of blood in the water because of the recent Tai Chi vs. MMA stuff. I think this is a good thing, as long as it is done in a respectful way. I don't like how some people talk about their challengers.

I could not agree with you more. Most people that trained more than a hundred years ago were illiterate, how could it be intellectually transmitted? And, now that we can do that, is it better? As you say, experience and time with the teacher is the way to the real secrets. To be clear, I agree that there are real secrets, though they may or may not be translatable to others. This time commitment and lack of easy access to quality instruction creates a problem that opens the door to cult leaders and salesmen peddling poor quality parlor tricks to the seekers and the uninformed. At some point, the myth sold often enough becomes a truth unto itself, fostering generations the self deluded. Even the trickster becomes convinced of his powers until forced to a challenge by legitimacy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The post wasn't intended to be an argument to what you wrote, as was made clear in the very first line.

It looks at and outlines the ideas purported to be the basis of a body of internal work which explores the interactive nature of mind/intent without the precepts of Tai Chi Chuan's boxing method getting in the way of that work.

A few relatable examples were given of everyday occurrences of the phenomenon in order to lend basis to the notion I posed earlier:



The value and interest some may find in the exploration of those ideas can stand on its own merits while having nothing to do with the things you've cited, or embarrassing the 'real' Tai Chi people.

As you please, I have my opinions, they are just that. People may have all sorts of valid reason for their practice. By all means, make it your own and wring every drop of substance from it. I bear no ill will toward sincere people no matter their reasons for practice. I don’t see an exercise, I see a demonstration meant as such. I am speaking to videos of people flying away at a touch and those who purport to have such abilities. I generally challenge the assertions claiming such, and take umbrage with such baldly plain charlatanisms until proven wrong. To be clear, I want to be proven wrong. Part of why I feel so strongly about it, not because I think I’m the real tai chi people, but because I know that the real thing exists however rare. I recognize my tone is gruff and strident, all apologies for any hurt feelings.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The post wasn't intended to be an argument to what you wrote, as was made clear in the very first line.

It looks at and outlines the ideas purported to be the basis of a body of internal work which explores the interactive nature of mind/intent without the precepts of Tai Chi Chuan's boxing method getting in the way of that work.

A few relatable examples were given of everyday occurrences of the phenomenon in order to lend basis to the notion I posed earlier:



The value and interest some may find in the exploration of those ideas can stand on its own merits while having nothing to do with the things you've cited, or embarrassing the 'real' Tai Chi people.

On a separate note, I don’t personally believe that it’s possible that Tai Chi Chuan boxing method can possibly “ be in the way “. How can you separate the practice from itself?

 

[Same Trick]

That’s a fair question. By “internal aspects,” I don’t mean the opponent’s mind or intent specifically. It’s about how the body — shaped by internal alignment and intent — influences how someone reacts, often in subtle, structural ways rather than purely mental ones.

The body reacts to what the mind senses, and the mind reacts to what the body senses. Master Gao Zhuang Fei describes this interplay as the shifting states of “virtual” and “real” — a dynamic exchange between what is perceived and what is expressed.

This is why what’s shown in the video looks so different from “external” methods. It isn’t about acting on the opponent’s outside frame but about interacting with these inner conditions, which then manifest outwardly in their movement and balance. One way of looking at it....it can be explained in other ways that reference and depend on ones understanding of yi, qi...ect...directly something a little hard to discuss with out a common experantly frame work.

It sounds as your talking in a circle. First it’s not specific about mind or Yi. Then end with it depend on one’s understanding of Yi and Qi.
While In the middle you explain the obvious of mind and body inseparability .
So the “opponents internal aspects” can be his overall expression, his mental outlook, his posture ? And so this must also be true for the masters “internal aspects “ expression .

Anyone, master or student use their “Yi” to form a pointing finger, everyone, master or student knows what pointing a finger means.
A pointing finger contest between a master and a strong willed student may end up in nothing but a draw. But if the master first talks through to a “loyal” student the “magic” of the masters finger-pointing, the chances the master will come out on top is high.

 

[Marsha Larts]

On a separate note, I don’t personally believe that it’s possible that Tai Chi Chuan boxing method can possibly “ be in the way “. How can you separate the practice from itself?

There are a number of building blocks that make up the foundation of Tai Chi Chuan boxing method which are practiced and developed in isolation, separately, before their integration. Too much too soon muddles the clarity and precision of that development. That notwithstanding, the subject of this discussion is addressing one of the cornerstones of taiji which predates Tai Chi Chuan boxing method by some centuries.

Some have felt it - some have not. Nobody's trying to sell anybody anything here. Being open and receptive to an idea that is offered freely, and engaging in sincere enquiry before dismissing it out of hand can only be a good thing.

On a separate note, just there are many who practice taiji without the chuan, there are many who practice the chuan without taiji. Your complaints regarding the lack of testing, and the results that have been borne out in those instances where testing has occurred, is equally applicable to the boxing method itself. There is no shortage of delusion in that regard. It's easy to see who knows what they're talking about and who is just regurgitating things that are divorced from their own personal experiences.

It would still be fun to spitball some exercises or training methods that focus on isolating and investigating this phenomenon.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There are a number of building blocks that make up the foundation of Tai Chi Chuan boxing method which are practiced and developed in isolation, separately, before their integration. Too much too soon muddles the clarity and precision of that development. That notwithstanding, the subject of this discussion is addressing one of the cornerstones of taiji which predates Tai Chi Chuan boxing method by some centuries.

Some have felt it - some have not. Nobody's trying to sell anybody anything here. Being open and receptive to an idea that is offered freely, and engaging in sincere enquiry before dismissing it out of hand can only be a good thing.

On a separate note, just there are many who practice taiji without the chuan, there are many who practice the chuan without taiji. Your complaints regarding the lack of testing, and the results that have been borne out in those instances where testing has occurred, is equally applicable to the boxing method itself. There is no shortage of delusion in that regard. It's easy to see who knows what they're talking about and who is just regurgitating things that are divorced from their own personal experiences.

It would still be fun to spitball some exercises or training methods that focus on isolating and investigating this phenomenon.

Knowing what one is talking about and being able to actually do it are two very different things. I’m fine with exercises and training methodology experimentation so long as they are based in reality. Let’s be clear, do you believe one can send a noncompliant opponent flying through the air with a mere touch? With no touch?

 

[windwalker099]

Knowing what one is talking about and being able to actually do it are two very different things. I’m fine with exercises and training methodology experimentation so long as they are based in reality. Let’s be clear, do you believe one can send a noncompliant opponent flying through the air with a mere touch? With no touch?

Everything I’ve posted or talked about is from direct experience. Over more than 20 years of CMA practice before meeting my last taiji teacher with this skill set, another 20yrs of practice dropping everything else after meeting him...,
I’ve managed to develop some small skill sets within this area.
Very much still working on it,,,

Have you ever run downhill trying to catch your balance so you don’t fall? That involuntary reaction — the body moving before you can think — is very close to what it feels like. The reactions people have when experiencing it are real.

Not all react in the same way,,Whether touched or not, the underling principles by which it works are the same.

As @Marsha Larts mentioned, without an open mind it’s common to question even what one has directly experienced. That happens often.


This thread, wasn’t really about debating whether such things exist. It started as a discussion of the different reactions between the teacher and student in the video — the pointing method was just one way the teacher was helping the student avoid getting stuck at the contact point.

 

[windwalker099]

Not one pressure test. When we have seen these “masters” put to the test, the result is dismal and quite frankly, an embarrassment to those who have the actual abilities of which you speak.

Am I included in the “we”?

If so, I’d have to disagree. The issue comes when everything — and everyone — gets lumped together under the same dismissive label, usually based on things not personally experienced.

In my own practice I’ve met many Taiji people who’ve trained for decades, but whose methods weren’t compatible with this approach. Often it’s because they never let go of old habits, or in some cases simply couldn’t. That doesn’t make the skill set less real — it just means not everyone gets there, nor needs to....

Was asked to help out in the
August 9, 2014.
Push hands workshop at the twelfth annual Chinese American Olympics of Northern California. 北加州華人體育.
The people there had many yrs of taiji practice in different styles,,, fun working with them....

..

 

[Marsha Larts]

Let’s be clear, do you believe one can send a noncompliant opponent flying through the air with a mere touch? With no touch?

Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant and has nothing at all to do with my stated interest in the subject of this discussion.

- motorists swerving into an oncoming lane for whatever reason, causing an innocent driver to put their vehicle in the ditch, or worse, to avoid a collision without any contact between the two vehicles involved.

- people in sparring or sportive activity, or otherwise involved in some kind of conflict where one of the principals flinches or expresses some other overt 'intent' causing the other person to jump back, or trip and fall over their own feet or an obstacle.

-demonstrations with which you are taking issue that were either fake or genuine.

Again, those instances, be they spontaneous or contrived, are irrelevant.


Do you have any suggestions as to how one might structure a training exercise around the ideas of isolating, and experimenting with, intent interactively in such a way that it lends deeper insight to the subtleties of its suggestive and responsive powers?