Intent Yi (意)

[Wing Woo Gar]

Am I missing something here?

It was merely a reply. No need to read much into it. Ignore it if you please.

 

[windwalker099]

but I just asked -
“Same Trick said:
What do you mean with “opponents internal aspects” ?”
Do you mean their mind ?

It's not their "mind" thats affected although its the mind that reacts to what the body feels or senses.

In your previous post, you mentioned it's low level skill, "It work in a psychological sense" "it's trickery" . ect.

Maybe you'er addressing something different ?

If you get a chance to watch the "Wang Peisheng Demonstrating Push Hands Complete Version" video,
It should be quite common in China on their channels its been out for quite a while.
A good video covering many aspects.

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei also explaines it quite well along with an interesting demo, that should be viewable
in China...

 

[Same Trick]

It's not their "mind" thats affected although its the mind that reacts to what the body feels or senses.

In your previous post, you mentioned it's low level skill, "It work in a psychological sense" "it's trickery" . ect.

Maybe you'er addressing something different ?

If you get a chance to watch the "Wang Peisheng Demonstrating Push Hands Complete Version" video,
It should be quite common in China on their channels its been out for quite a while.
A good video covering many aspects.

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei also explaines it quite well along with an interesting demo, that should be viewable
in China...

Yes I will look for the video, but my question was toward that you wrote - “ opponents “ and their “internal aspects “ - what do you mean with “ opponents internal aspects” ? Is it the opponents Yi, Qi ?

Since you are writing “opponent” that would mean someone opposing “you”, in what way does the opponent oppose with his internal aspects- projecting qi or a mental attitude toward you ?

 

[windwalker099]

Yes I will look for the video, but my question was toward that you wrote - “ opponents “ and their “internal aspects “ - what do you mean with “ opponents internal aspects” ? Is it the opponents Yi, Qi ?

Since you are writing “opponent” that would mean someone opposing “you”, in what way does the opponent oppose with his internal aspects- projecting qi or a mental attitude toward you ?

That’s a fair question. By “internal aspects,” I don’t mean the opponent’s mind or intent specifically. It’s about how the body — shaped by internal alignment and intent — influences how someone reacts, often in subtle, structural ways rather than purely mental ones.

The body reacts to what the mind senses, and the mind reacts to what the body senses. Master Gao Zhuang Fei describes this interplay as the shifting states of “virtual” and “real” — a dynamic exchange between what is perceived and what is expressed.

This is why what’s shown in the video looks so different from “external” methods. It isn’t about acting on the opponent’s outside frame but about interacting with these inner conditions, which then manifest outwardly in their movement and balance. One way of looking at it....it can be explained in other ways that reference and depend on ones understanding of yi, qi...ect...directly something a little hard to discuss with out a common experantly frame work.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Mind/intent methodology is necessarily a component of function within the Tai Chi context. Tai Chi Chuan however, as a martial art, must be functional as such. Videos of demonstration are worthless as evidence in my opinion. In my experience, these are generally equal to stage performance chicanery. Can they do it while I hit them? Can they use it to prevent me hitting them? Do they have a student that can? I quickly lose interest in lack luster conversations that tend towards “ I have a secret “, or “you haven’t experienced my level of knowledge”. These are the trappings of the hucksters, the charlatans, and the self deluded. A person may very well have abilities beyond the norm or the easy explanation, but they will not have developed that in the absence of the physical ability I speak of. In short, it’s a litmus test that a person of real skill will have no issue with. Now, some will claim age, or infirmity as limiting the ability to prove, to this I invite their student to stand in. I can say for certain that no challenge of this sort was ever denied by any of my teachers, thus my strident position and opinion on the matter. It’s pointless as a discussion unless the discussion is in person and includes pressure testing. We have all seen the dismal results of the many challenges to multiple Tai Chi instructors by a certain Chinese MMA fighter. What is missing there? The “mumbo jumbo” is real, but not without the physical reality.

No one with any common sense could argue those points if they're to be taken at face value, and within the realm of demonstrable skill/ability in a test of non-cooperative contact. But if we suspend our disbelief for a bit and look at mind/intent in a broader sense as it seems to be presented in the the videos windwalker has posted, and in consideration of the questions that were asked about what is happening and why - if at all - the reactions of those in the video are different, we can look a little deeper into the workings of intent beyond the scope of martial practicality or functional fighting method.

The facets of intent being practiced and demonstrated in the videos ww posted are actually quite common, and a fair guestimate would be that everyone reading this thread has experienced similar phenomena many times throughout their life. When we're attentive and aware while driving, we interact with other drivers on that same 'plane', and especially at intersections when we encounter other, equally attentive and aware, drivers. With no more than eye-contact as a cue, we rightly anticipate the intention of the other driver. Sometimes there is no eye-contact at all as we, or they, 'read' the intent of the other by the way they or we direct our gaze. It also happens in hallways and stairwells when two people pass each other while going in opposite directions. We either cede or assume the right-of-way with no physical cues at all.

So what is happening in that moment when the intent of both people 'connect' in that way? In a taiji context, it could be said that both people are each simultaneously empty and full, receiving and releasing, or, in a perfect state of Central Equilibrium. Gao, Zhuang Fei talked a bit about that in the article windwalker linked in a recent post.

That state of anticipatory responsiveness is one of the subjects being explored in the kinds of work windwalker showed in post #29. There are other facets of intent that explorers of this type of work engage in as a means of cultivating a deeper understanding of taiji mind/intent that goes far beyond the instances of two people spontaneously 'getting out of each others way' - although, that is a central theme in sensing and listening to intent as it manifests in its different 'forms'. For most of us (myself included) re-creating those instances in the laboratory is extremely difficult and otherwise impossible without having the tutelage of someone who has a certain level of mastery of that ability that they are able to impart it in some small way.

In creating the conditions by which intent can be explored on that level and making the work accessible and repeatable in one's own training, there has to be the abandonment of martial context at first because the state of being that windwalker is wanting to discuss in this thread is an incredibly delicate and tenuous thing and especially so when there is no mechanism for recall available to those not having had the touch of someone else who is able to demonstrate it. But it can be done, albeit in a limited way, with a narrow window offering entry to that state on an interactive level. And it's enough that it can be nurtured and explored as one's understanding develops so that it may even become tenable to some extent.