Instructing in the Koryu arts, from a different thread ...

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pgsmith

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Unless you count one conjecture one of my koryu sensei had, that the whole of the samurai class were originally Korean in origin, having brought Continental Asian technology such as horseriding, metalworking, leatherworking (which later became a trade only for the burakumin), and so on. The Korean connection is not stressed, of course, by the Japanese government, but the Hata and Mononobe clans, who were the guilds of craftspeople associated with the imperial court, were wholesale Korean, settled in the Yamato area and given ranks and property in return for their production.

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Any comments about that?
Yes. It is a fairly well known fact that Korea had a profound impact on Japan. Of course, the events that Mr. Muramoto is referring to occured in the 5th and 6th centuries. That's almost a thousand years before the oldest existing koryu were codified.
 

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Yes. It is a fairly well known fact that Korea had a profound impact on Japan.

Not to some people. When I mentioned it in another topic, I got called names, told I didn't know anything, given all kinds of rationalizations about why I was "wrong", etc. I don't know if you remember that. But now Wayne Muromoto writes about it in his blog, I wonder if he will get the same sort of reaction and reception regarding that point.

PS: Sorry about the derailment of this thread. I thought we were having a pretty good conversation.
 

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I do have a japanese martial arts background.

Which arts, how long, what rank?

Here's something from the classic budoka blog:

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Unless you count one conjecture one of my koryu sensei had, that the whole of the samurai class were originally Korean in origin, having brought Continental Asian technology such as horseriding, metalworking, leatherworking (which later became a trade only for the burakumin), and so on. The Korean connection is not stressed, of course, by the Japanese government, but the Hata and Mononobe clans, who were the guilds of craftspeople associated with the imperial court, were wholesale Korean, settled in the Yamato area and given ranks and property in return for their production.

*

Any comments about that?

Firstly, that has nothing to do with the comment of mine that you quoted, and does nothing to really say anything one way or the other... that said, you really don't like context, do you? This was in the comments section, in response to a comment/idea put forth by Kit Leblanc about the likelihood/prominence of minorities holding high rank in Koryu, and if Wayne could think of any non-Japanese holding positions as Soke. Wayne's answer was "Interesting food for thought. Can't say I can think of any instance. Unless you count one conjecture one of my koryu sensei had...."

In other words, he was commenting that, according to ONE of his instructors, pretty much all the higher ranking members of Japans society from centuries ago were originally from Korea.... note, ONE instructor who had a CONJECTURE, an unsupported theory which is not held as a common belief.

You really don't like context, do you?

But I'm really unsure of what the potential connection from 1500+ years ago, predating all known Koryu, predating the Samurai class, really has to do with you not having any experience, knowledge, contact, reference points, or anything similar in order for you to make any kind of statement about whether or not I am suited to Koryu study...

Are you just trying the Chewbacca defence?

Yes, it's about avoiding public scenes and ugliness, which is why I don't think you are going to make it.

What understanding of Koryu do you base that on? Seriously, can you answer that?

I write what I write. If people wish to make an ugly public scene in response, especially if they misinterpret what I write because they have something else in their head, then that is their choice.

Perhaps if you didn't spend the entire time being smarmy, snide and sarcastic, attempting to turn each comment to a reference to yourself, or another name-drop, we wouldn't think such things of you.

Not to some people. When I mentioned it in another topic, I got called names, told I didn't know anything, given all kinds of rationalizations about why I was "wrong", etc. I don't know if you remember that. But now Wayne Muromoto writes about it in his blog, I wonder if he will get the same sort of reaction and reception regarding that point.

PS: Sorry about the derailment of this thread. I thought we were having a pretty good conversation.

Again, context is important. Wayne spoke of a conjecture one single instructor of his had, he didn't say "this is true, this is the way it is", for I'd say pretty good reason... and you weren't called names, really.
 
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Not to some people. When I mentioned it in another topic, I got called names, told I didn't know anything, given all kinds of rationalizations about why I was "wrong", etc. I don't know if you remember that. But now Wayne Muromoto writes about it in his blog, I wonder if he will get the same sort of reaction and reception regarding that point.
Japan was highly influenced in its early history by China and Korea, as their civilizations were much older than Japan's. In fact, it has been conjectured by some historians, as Mr. Muramoto mentioned in his blog, that the modern Japanese race began with Korean immigrants displacing the native Aizu populace. However, this is history from many, many years ago. It has no bearing on present day Japanese culture or on the koryu arts, the earliest of which came around well over a thousand years later. So, I'm not sure what relevance your statement has to our present discussion.
 

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Japan was highly influenced in its early history by China and Korea, as their civilizations were much older than Japan's. In fact, it has been conjectured by some historians, as Mr. Muramoto mentioned in his blog, that the modern Japanese race began with Korean immigrants displacing the native Aizu populace. However, this is history from many, many years ago. It has no bearing on present day Japanese culture or on the koryu arts, the earliest of which came around well over a thousand years later. So, I'm not sure what relevance your statement has to our present discussion.

Just checking to see if I know anything about something. :)
 

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We? I give you about ten more years.... and I again, I really hope I am wrong.

Yes, Glenn, we. Meaning far more than just me. Some examples to demonstrate? Sure, glad you asked!

It's okay to have a point of view, it is even good to try and make the case for that point of view. But it is also good to give due credence to the opinions of those who do not agree with you but do know what they are talking about.

This is an odd thing to be having a lengthy disagreement on, for it is indeed the case that every martial artist of rank that I have ever met holds the view that we have espoused here in various ways i.e. Jutsu or Do makes no practical distinction in the name of art with regard to what that art teaches.

(Sukerkin pointing out that you don't seem interested in actually learning or recognizing that you could be wrong in anything whatsoever, from the "Do vs Jutsu" thread).

So you don't want to listen to someone senior to you because their statement is different than your own.

...................

And you don't want to listen to someone junior to you because their statment is different than your own.

Hmm...I see a common denomenator here.

(From the "Proper Sequence of Events" thread).

Nice try, but you don't do smarmy nearly as well as a great many other people I know. Go ahead and feel as superior as you wish (since you're trying so hard), it's a mark of the underlying insecurity that will prevent you from ever feeling good about yourself without outside justification. I know several anime geeks that are friends of my eldest son. I would describe their houses pretty much the same way that you described yours. None of them practice koryu arts either, so they don't have any greater understanding of them than you seem to.



No, we meet Mondays 6:30 to 9:30. What makes you think I would I want a bunch of Tae Kwon Do people to stop by and interrupt our class?



Just so that you're up to date on your information (since you obviously aren't) I was yusho at the last West Coast Batto Do Tai Kai competing in the yondan and up division. Ray Hall was my instructor until he retired from teaching somewhere around 1999 or so. I studied Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu under Carl McClafferty and Yamada Yoshitaka. I was scheduled to test for my chuden menkyo when knee problems forced me to withdraw from the school (tobiichigai was my downfall). I then began practicing Meishi-ha Mugai ryu under Tony Alvarez and Niina Toyoaki. I am scheduled to test for yondan in that school at this year's gasshuku prior to the West Coast Tai Kai in September.

Now you can update your stalker file so you won't sound quite so foolish. Well, at least not when referring to me. :)

(Bolded for emphasis, from the "Do vs Jutsu" thread, with some very relevant comments to this thread as well)

No Glenn, you're not civil. Your sarcastic. You misrepresented my words to make a sarcastic remark. That kind of thing just isn't needed.

(Again, from the "Do vs Jutsu" thread).

This is indicative, but hardly exhaustive. I haven't even gotten to threads you wouldn't have seen yet.

Now, I'm going to say this one more time. You have no understanding of Koryu, of what is involved, what is required, or the vast range that is encapsulated by the term, so your continuous snide, petty digs trying to infer that I am not suited to their study is baseless and frankly offensive. You have nothing to actually support them other than your own lack of knowledge and experience, and they serve no purpose other than to get under my skin and have you think you're being (or showing) superiority. You're not.

Again, keep this up, and the next one is reported for harassment. You're already on "restricted access", so how about you play nice from now on, and I'll do the same, yeah?

Curious...what was the original point to this thread...?

Oh, that's easy. The question was asked in another thread about learning and teaching Koryu, with the false assumption that they were as alike as different TKD systems, and this was an attempt to clarify that such generalisations were inaccurate, as well as clear up some other false assumptions. Of course, the person we were trying to explain things to was Glenn...
 

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Curious...what was the original point to this thread...?

Here is the original inquiry that started the thread:

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Maybe we can start a new thread, but how hard is it to get an instructor license in a koryu art? I know you are going for a mid level certification soon, good luck with that, but I get the feeling a lot of people out there have no certification at all. Also, how important do you feel it is to have an understanding of japanese culture when studying koryu? I would think simple stuff like knowing how to bow properly, etc.

*

I don't know if that differs from the original point.
 

puunui

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Yes, Glenn, we. Meaning far more than just me. Some examples to demonstrate? Sure, glad you asked!

Sukerkin
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At least with respect to Sukerin and pgsmith, I would think that they have, at least partially, moved beyond those statements from a while back, given our subsequent discussions and in particular some of the comments made in this thread. They might even be slightly embarrassed at those earlier posts as they serve as evidence of a temporary loss of self control and discipline, which are important in all japanese martial arts, koryu or not.

As for Kong Soo Do, no comment.

I will say this though, with respect to this topic, that every time you lash out in anger or in irritation, or in frustration, whether it is me or someone else, if I were a koryu teacher, the questions I would be asking when I read those posts is: Even if he is 100% correct, is this response something that I would want my student saying in public? Is this the sort of person that I would give a license to? Is this the type of person that I would want representing our koryu to the public? Is this the type of person that I want to succeed me? Is this the example that I wish to follow myself?
 

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At least with respect to Sukerin and pgsmith, I would think that they have, at least partially, moved beyond those statements from a while back, given our subsequent discussions and in particular some of the comments made in this thread. They might even be slightly embarrassed at those earlier posts as they serve as evidence of a temporary loss of self control and discipline, which are important in all japanese martial arts, koryu or not.

Don't be so sure about that... they may be more patient and diplomatic where you're concerned, but don't mistake that for thinking your take on things is accepted, or your behaviour is not being commented on.

And seriously? You think they'd be embarrassed? Really, get over yourself.

As for Kong Soo Do, no comment.

Ah, that's right, he dares to question you, no wonder you don't get along with him....

I will say this though, with respect to this topic, that every time you lash out in anger or in irritation, or in frustration, whether it is me or someone else, if I were a koryu teacher, the questions I would be asking when I read those posts is: Even if he is 100% correct, is this response something that I would want my student saying in public? Is this the sort of person that I would give a license to? Is this the type of person that I would want representing our koryu to the public? Is this the type of person that I want to succeed me? Is this the example that I wish to follow myself?

Ha, you're kidding, yeah? Defending the Koryu from misinformation and misinterpretation, and they'd be upset? You really don't know the types of posts that even my seniors have made in regard to Koryu, do you?

But let's spell it out to you.

I'm not lashing out in anger, I'm pointing out the huge gaps in your arguments, the lack of anything substantial to anything you say, and then getting frustrated with your lack of willingness to accept that you don't know what you're talking about here.

If you were a Koryu teacher, you wouldn't be in this position... but more to the point, it would depend on which Koryu. So again you're showing that you don't understand even the first thing here.

"Even if he is 100% correct, is this response something I would want my student saying in public?" Wow, are you off base again. We could go through the posts of threatened legal action against those who misrepresent certain Ryu, we could look to many posts spelling out the fakes, frauds and thieves who misrepresent Koryu in any form, so my putting forth correct information would be considered a boon, and the method would be considered justified based on the way you're responding here.

"Is this the sort of person that I would give a licence to?" Again, you don't really have much of a clue about who gets what licence, and for what. In one of the Ryu I have experience in, only three Menkyo Kaiden are awarded in a generation, and they're all already gone, in another there isn't a licencing system being used (in my line), so you're out of luck thinking that anything you're referencing even refers to me. But more to the point, licences have been awarded at many levels for a range of reasons.... hell, I hold a couple of licences, when we get down to it.

"Is this the type of person that I would want representing our koryu to the public?" One more time, you don't seem to have a clue what type of representation the Koryu in question prefer. Some do like a more aggressive protectionist approach, you know... others don't really allow any information out at all, and would simply let you continue to have no idea, without even offering to correct you. And anywhere inbetween. But give up on the whole "you have to be polite and nice" thing... you're dealing with arts here who were designed to, and retain the mentality of, causing injury and death to other human beings. "Being nice and polite" is only really there to stop the other person from feeling provoked into attacking and killing the "rude" person. There is no rule that says I have to be nice, or polite at all. Passion and loyalty to the Ryu can be considered better traits, you realise... which is what you're seeing here.

"Is this the type of person I wish to succeed me?" Ha, you're kidding, yeah? Not really something that would be asked, you know. "Is this person right for the Ryu?", on the other hand, is a question that would be considered valid.... but I don't know that the answer would be what you think, again depending on the Ryu itself.

"Is this the example that I wish to follow myself?" Uh, weren't you playing Koryu instructor here? And again, you've missed the point. This is not really a question that has a lot of relevance.

Now, to end this, your conjecture is based on not having the first clue about anything to do with the inner workings of Koryu. So you not liking the fact that I'm calling you on your attacks isn't anything to do with the information I'm providing, or my standing in any Ryu-ha, as you don't understand any of the context associated. But, to try to bring this back to some form of actual conversation, there have been a range of questions posed to you, can you go back and answer some of them?
 

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Now, to end this, your conjecture is based on not having the first clue about anything to do with the inner workings of Koryu. So you not liking the fact that I'm calling you on your attacks isn't anything to do with the information I'm providing, or my standing in any Ryu-ha, as you don't understand any of the context associated. But, to try to bring this back to some form of actual conversation, there have been a range of questions posed to you, can you go back and answer some of them?

You really are missing the point, but that's ok. And each post gets angrier and angrier. Ten years, max.
 
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They might even be slightly embarrassed at those earlier posts as they serve as evidence of a temporary loss of self control and discipline, which are important in all japanese martial arts, koryu or not.
No embarrassment on my part, and no loss of self control or discipline either. In earlier posts I simply returned insult and sarcasm with insult and sarcasm. In subsequent conversations, I've returned civility with civility. I have to admit though that your baiting of Mr. Parker gets very tiresome.
 

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No embarrassment on my part, and no loss of self control or discipline either. In earlier posts I simply returned insult and sarcasm with insult and sarcasm. In subsequent conversations, I've returned civility with civility. I have to admit though that your baiting of Mr. Parker gets very tiresome.

Thank you for your thoughts. And my posts were not insulting or sarcastic, from my perspective, although I do understand that you took it that way. And I am not baiting him; rather he comes barging in. Check out this thread, we were having a very nice conversation until it got derailed.
 

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You really are missing the point, but that's ok. And each post gets angrier and angrier. Ten years, max.

It was spelled out to you. You don't have any idea of the context you're talking about. And it's comments such as "Ten years, max" that Paul is meaning when he talks about you baiting me... as that's exactly what you're doing. And no, you can't deny it, as I've pointed it out to you repeatedly, so there really isn't any deniability for you. You know what you're doing, and continue it by trying to skate just within the rules. It gets old, and doesn't help anything you say.

Thank you for your thoughts. And my posts were not insulting or sarcastic, from my perspective, although I do understand that you took it that way. And I am not baiting him; rather he comes barging in. Check out this thread, we were having a very nice conversation until it got derailed.

Your posts were insulting. You were told they were, and had explained to you exactly what the insult was, and where you were saying it.

Your posts are sarcastic. This is noted time and time again. You like to use indirect references in your posts to have little digs.

You are baiting me, you have had that pointed out a number of times. So you are fully aware that that is what you're doing.

"Barging in"? You made a sly dig, which I commented on. But this all really started here with post 15, where you took a range of my comments out of context. I would say that you didn't seem to understand what you had read, then point out what the actual point was, and you harped on my saying you didn't understand (without the part where I gave further clarification). That's what's lead to this, Glenn. Your words were:

You started off good, but then you went here:

You just can't help yourself.

without actually addressing anything in my answers/response to you. You have since continued to not answer anything, instead choosing to continually attack and bait me.

If you want a good conversation, that's up to you. If you ask questions, I will answer. If you post things that are incorrect, or irrelevant with the implication of being important, I'll correct them. So so long as you continue to post in the Koryu section, or really anywhere, and get things wrong, I'll correct it. How I correct it will depend on you.
 

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It was spelled out to you. You don't have any idea of the context you're talking about.

I mention that I didn't care about the context in one specific context, and now you think I don't care about the context in all situations? And I am not baiting you. But even if I were, and you truly believed that, then why would you constantly bite at the bait? This last post is more angry than the last one. You're getting all worked up for nothing.
 

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I said you don't understand the context, Glenn, because you don't. Not that you don't care about it, that you don't get it. You have no experience to base it on, and every post you make has shown that you don't understand it. That's the point.

You really have no idea what you're talking about here.
 

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