I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[JowGaWolf]

If you know how the DLT works, why are you posting vids of people doing it improperly and saying that those are good examples of defenses against that technique?

I pick those videos because they are addressing the shoot and not the take down. No where in my post did I say these are techniques for dealing with a Double Leg Takedown. Takedowns are made of 2 main parts. The first part is the shoot. The second part is the actual takedown. The shoot is the technique that's get you in range to perform the takedown. A successful shoot will give you the opportunity to do numerous takedowns, no of which has to be a double leg take down. A person can do a shoot for a single leg take down, an ankle lock, or even a slam, just to name a few.

This is what it looks like in wrestling when addressing the shoot. This method of addressing the shoot cannot be used exactly the same way for fighting systems that involve someone hitting or kicking at you. You'll also notice (mark 1:37) he speaks about using his forearms to address the shoot. This is what you see in the previous video with the guy wearing the gi (mark 3:14), using his forearms to address the shoot.

Once someone has you wrapped up for double leg take down then you have to address the takedown because the shoot was successful.

I just tried to point out that "striking" is not a proper counter for "leg shooting". Even if your strike may hit on your opponent, his forward momentum will still push you back and take you down

Exactly. No matter how good it looks in a demo, that someone can strike the head to stop a shoot, it is highly risky, and there's no guarantee that a person will be in a position to execute a strike with enough power to be effective. Shoots are fast and sneaky and the quickest response is to move the legs while restricting movement on the shoot. That's 2 things happening at once as a defender. If a person is only trying to strike at the shoot then no effort is being made to restrict the movement of the shoot. This is why we are always kung fu people fail when trying to strike a shoot.

Again, the best test is still:
- get a wrestler,
- ask him to shoot at your leg,
- you try to use your punch to stop him

I would even go a step further and ask the wrestler about the concept and goal of the shoot. Once a person understands an attack then they are more likely to use the appropriate technique to defend against it, even if it's a kung fu based grappling technique. My school does exactly this and we do it with the mindset of better understanding our own fighting style and techniques. Our goal is to understand how to correctly apply our kung fu grappling techniques to deal with the shoot.

 

[drop bear]

I have looked at english and viking war culture and so far people still think wrestling is not a war art.so.

Mongolian wrestling.

Bokh - the Mongolian Martial Art - Historum - History Forums

 

[drop bear]

Mongolian girl wrestling.

Actually this link is pretty cool.

Khutulun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LFJ]

Were the Viking examples duels?

The video showed and the text described 1 on 1, not group battles.

There is no point getting stabbed if going to the ground gets you unstabbed.

Going to the ground in 1 on 1 that might be. It gets you stabbed / chopped / smashed for sure in the middle of a group battle.

I mean we are working a time factor here if you are farting around in a group fight trying to get one guy then you are not teaming up with your mates getting the next guy and increasing your odds.

Exactly why there is no duelling or ground fighting in a group battle... You will certainly be killed. It's not that difficult to understand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Since I have yet to see any of these Jow Ga grappling/anti-grappling techniques, I'll just ask; Are they native to Jow Ga, or were they picked up from modern/western/MMA grappling?

Some of the Jow Ga grappling /anti-grappling techniques are kung fu based and others are universal across many fighting styles including modern day grappling. Non of our anti-grappling techniques consist of striking as a way to control grabbling or escaping from grappling. The entire benefit of grappling is that it neutralizes the strikes or makes the strikes less effective.

I don't like martial art videos or instructors that address the shoot and ant-grappling in this manner.

or videos like this. Jow Ga uses uppercuts and no where in the "Jow Ga Manual" does it say use an uppercut to stop someone that's shooting on you and trying to grab you low. Neither one of the videos addresses the importance of the height of a stance which is also vital. The other thing is that they are always performed in with slow movement. Videos like these tell me that either the instructor doesn't understand the shoot, or isn't interpreting their technique correctly. For example, an uppercut may be a follow up after a successful shoot defense, but it isn't actually part of the defense to deal with someone shooting on you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The following oldest picture was found in China back in 280 BC. You can see the way those Chinese wrestlers dressed look exactly like the Japanese Sumo wrestler that we have today (Some Japanese still don't want to admit that Japanese Sumo may come from China). 2 guys on the right were doing wrestling. 1 guy on the left was the referee. It was done on a stage with ribbon.

The interested part is, the middle guy used his hands to push his opponent's arm up before he intend to "shoot". This is a very important strategy. If you push your opponent arms up, when you shoot at his leg/legs, his arms won't give you any trouble. This can further prove that trying to use punch to hit on your opponent's head while he shoots in is not practically.

 

[Tez3]

The Mongols used wrestling as training and as an occupation/amusement to keep the troops busy, they didn't use it 'on the battlefield', very difficult to do that as they were mounted...unless one taught the horses to grapple.

 

[Hanzou]

I pick those videos because they are addressing the shoot and not the take down. No where in my post did I say these are techniques for dealing with a Double Leg Takedown. Takedowns are made of 2 main parts. The first part is the shoot. The second part is the actual takedown. The shoot is the technique that's get you in range to perform the takedown. A successful shoot will give you the opportunity to do numerous takedowns, no of which has to be a double leg take down. A person can do a shoot for a single leg take down, an ankle lock, or even a slam, just to name a few.

Again, its the shooting part that is done incorrectly which consequently means the entire technique is done incorrectly. It's laughable to say that you've built a strong technique to counter the takedown when you're not training against the actual takedown.

It's just like that Stephen Hayes vid I posted. There's no point in training to fight against the Guard when you don't understand the Guard position in the first place.

This is what it looks like in wrestling when addressing the shoot. This method of addressing the shoot cannot be used exactly the same way for fighting systems that involve someone hitting or kicking at you. You'll also notice (mark 1:37) he speaks about using his forearms to address the shoot. This is what you see in the previous video with the guy wearing the gi (mark 3:14), using his forearms to address the shoot.

But again, that technique wasn't done correctly, so using that as a sound method against the DLT is nonsense. Also while you certainly wouldn't use your head to stop the DLT in a striking situation, the principles found in wrestling still apply to a counter within a striking environment. MMA for example uses wrestling and Jiujitsu to counter the DLT, and there's plenty of strikes to be found in that sport.

Once someone has you wrapped up for double leg take down then you have to address the takedown because the shoot was successful.

I personally like this;



It's a great (late) counter to the DLT.

Some of the Jow Ga grappling /anti-grappling techniques are kung fu based and others are universal across many fighting styles including modern day grappling. Non of our anti-grappling techniques consist of striking as a way to control grabbling or escaping from grappling. The entire benefit of grappling is that it neutralizes the strikes or makes the strikes less effective.

Well since you're not showing any counters from Jow Ga, could you please show these Kung Fu based/Universal counters to the DLT? Again, there's a difference between how the DLT was countered when your style was formulated and how the DLT is countered in modern MA. The technique has changed dramatically since the early 20th century, and is still being refined and perfected. Thus, your art's counters are more than likely as outdated/incorrect as those you showed in the earlier videos.

And remember, this is still the only example of Jow Ga DLT counter that we've seen thus far, which frankly fits in with your standard Kung Fu based counters to grappling techniques;

Horrific.

 

[drop bear]

The Mongols used wrestling as training and as an occupation/amusement to keep the troops busy, they didn't use it 'on the battlefield', very difficult to do that as they were mounted...unless one taught the horses to grapple.

The article said they did. And the horses are bloody tiny. You could wrestle a guy off one.

 

[drop bear]

The Mongols used wrestling as training and as an occupation/amusement to keep the troops busy, they didn't use it 'on the battlefield', very difficult to do that as they were mounted...unless one taught the horses to grapple.

The article said they did. And the horses are bloody tiny. You could wrestle a guy off one.

 

[drop bear]

The video showed and the text described 1 on 1, not group battles.



Going to the ground in 1 on 1 that might be. It gets you stabbed / chopped / smashed for sure in the middle of a group battle.



Exactly why there is no duelling or ground fighting in a group battle... You will certainly be killed. It's not that difficult to understand.

. Three different cultures all wrestle in war. With evidence to back it up and you have responded with just this unfounded idea.

Where do you get this information from?

 

[drop bear]

Again, its the shooting part that is done incorrectly which consequently means the entire technique is done incorrectly. It's laughable to say that you've built a strong technique to counter the takedown when you're not training against the actual takedown.

It's just like that Stephen Hayes vid I posted. There's no point in training to fight against the Guard when you don't understand the Guard position in the first place.



But again, that technique wasn't done correctly, so using that as a sound method against the DLT is nonsense. Also while you certainly wouldn't use your head to stop the DLT in a striking situation, the principles found in wrestling still apply to a counter within a striking environment. MMA for example uses wrestling and Jiujitsu to counter the DLT, and there's plenty of strikes to be found in that sport.



I personally like this;



c.

I don't know if rolling makes a difference but normally we don't defend double overlooks because you can step out to defend it.

 

[LFJ]

. Three different cultures all wrestle in war. With evidence to back it up and you have responded with just this unfounded idea.

Where do you get this information from?

Everything you have posted thus far has referred only to 1 on 1, not in the midst of hundreds of armed warriors.

And what exactly are you calling evidence? Stories, legends? Then you must also believe there is evidence to support them having fought dragons.

I get this information from common sense.

 

[Tez3]

. Three different cultures all wrestle in war. With evidence to back it up and you have responded with just this unfounded idea.

Where do you get this information from?

LOL, you disagree so it's unfounded, really, look up any history site.

. I take it you don't know much about horses and riding if you think you can wrestle riders off that easily. In the west horses have been trained as 'warhorses' attacking on command. If you watch a dressage event or the Spanish Riding School you will see the movements they were trained in. The Mongols were and still are extremely skilled horsemen, you should never judge a horse by it's size, the bigger they are the more placid, those 'little' horse are fierce and would eat you given a chance.

we don't defend double overlooks because you can step out to defend it

I don't defend double overlooks either, just fling them a scowl and flounce away.

 

[drop bear]

LOL, you disagree so it's unfounded, really, look up any history site.

I have looked up three so far and posted them and quite simply nobody else has which is what I ment by unfounded.

As in unfounded.

So unfounded

 

[drop bear]

. I take it you don't know much about horses and riding if you think you can wrestle riders off that easily. In the west horses have been trained as 'warhorses' attacking on command. If you watch a dressage event or the Spanish Riding School you will see the movements they were trained in. The Mongols were and still are extremely skilled horsemen, you should never judge a horse by it's size, the bigger they are the more placid, those 'little' horse are fierce and would eat you given a chance.

I have seen rodeo clowns wrestle riders off bulls which are bigger and arguably more violent.

 

[Tez3]

I have seen rodeo clowns wrestle riders off bulls which are bigger and arguably more violent.

If I had a giraffe you would have the box to put it in.

 

[geezer]

Everything you have posted thus far has referred only to 1 on 1, not in the midst of hundreds of armed warriors.

Have you seen Capitan Alatriste? OK it's only a movie, but historically, better than average...

Check out what's going on in the pike battle from about 3:00 to 4:00. You will see soldiers crawling under the pikes and fighting on their hands and knees.I don't know if you'd call it grappling or not. It's certainly ground-fighting though. You can find similar instances happening in battles from other periods, such as in WWI trench warfare.

 

[drop bear]

If I had a giraffe you would have the box to put it in.

They are custom built.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, its the shooting part that is done incorrectly which consequently means the entire technique is done incorrectly. It's laughable to say that you've built a strong technique to counter the takedown when you're not training against the actual takedown.

I'm the one laughable? You are the one trying to tell me about the fighting system I train in, and the effectiveness of its grappling and anti-grappling techniques. None of which do you know, practice, or seen put to work against people who grapple. But I guess you have trained under the same lineage as I have so that's why you know more about Jow Ga grappling and ant-grappling techniques more than me.

Well since you're not showing any counters from Jow Ga, could you please show these Kung Fu based/Universal counters to the DLT?

#1 I'm pretty sure I put out a link and said to check that link this weekend because there will be videos of Jow Ga in action some of which show use dealing with the shoot.
#2 I don't know why you are so concerned with the double leg take down. You act as if a double leg take down is the only thing someone can do after they shoot. The technique of shooting isn't the same as the technique of a double leg take down. Just because someone shoots on you doesn't mean that they are going to do a double leg take down.

And remember, this is still the only example of Jow Ga DLT counter that we've seen thus far, which frankly fits in with your standard Kung Fu based counters to grappling techniques

And like I said before this is not a Jow Ga technique for countering a shoot. He is using the wrong Jow Ga technique for addressing the shoot. Even though you I keep telling you this you keep insisting that is the Jow Ga technique for countering a shoot. He is not of the same lineage of Jow Ga that I'm from so I can't even tell you what their sifu focuses on in terms of Jow Ga. I looked up his sifu (Sigung Andry Truong) and his him doing the forms. There technique at (Mark 1:54) is the technique that is used for defending against the shoot. That's the one that should have been used. If you don't see the technique or understand how it could work then that's because you don't train in Jow Ga. You can either believe what I say or you can continue to tell me about about a technique you have never used.

This is the last response that I'll make to you in reference to grappling. You can only make assumptions based off someone using the wrong Jow Ga technique on a attempted shoot and just assume that Jow Ga uses that as a standard defense against a grapple. Then when someone who takes Jow Ga and trains against the shoot tries to tell you differently you (the person who doesn't take Jow Ga or train in my school) insist on telling me that what I do is "laughable."

The difference between you and someone who actually wants to understand how something works, is that the person who wants to understand listens and asks questions about how it works. You picked a Jow Ga video that you found on you tube and not once did you ask me is that the grappling technique that is taught.